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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 20, 2014 at 5:39 pm
(July 20, 2014 at 5:31 pm)Blackout Wrote: That's true, but we were talking about someone voluntarily hooking up to a 2 year old, not someone who was plugged against will
If that is the case then it is not comparable to an unwanted pregnancy. I thought we were talking about if a woman was legally required to hook up to the child.
If a woman voluntarily hooks up she will have to sign medical documents giving permissions and such.
Embryos never seek permission before implantation. So it's just not the same in that case.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 20, 2014 at 5:40 pm
(July 20, 2014 at 5:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote: LOL, pointless. You win, wtf we're talking about. I'm done.
I already forgot the cause of our discussion too, it seemed pointless. Just stop putting words in my mouth, I never said someone should be compelled to carry a pregnancy, I find that idea idiotic and filled with religious impositions that infiltrated trough morality.
That doesn't mean I can't hypothetically pose the case of a fetus being a person legally and the implications it could have, by balancing arguments from both sides, I like to keep my mind opened to both options.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 20, 2014 at 6:56 pm
(July 20, 2014 at 5:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote: LOL, pointless. You win, wtf we're talking about. I'm done.
You're arguing with a idealist....
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 20, 2014 at 7:00 pm
Yeah I'm kind of an idealist
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 20, 2014 at 7:13 pm
Kind of?!? 
It's all good.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 20, 2014 at 7:16 pm
(July 20, 2014 at 7:13 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: Kind of?!?
It's all good.
It depends on how you define an idealist. I'm an idealist in a sense that I stick to my ideals and values all the time, even if they seem hard to fulfill. I also appreciate the philosophies of idealism, mainly existentialism
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 20, 2014 at 10:51 pm
(July 20, 2014 at 11:48 am)Esquilax Wrote: Uh, except that you're wrong: future personhood has nothing to do with it. If it did, the same moral protection would be extended to sperm, and any line you attempted to draw to make this not so would be entirely arbitrary.
This is a stupid counter argument and I think you know it because it has been explained on this forum several times. A sperm.....by itself....has no future expectation of person-hood. A sperm....by itself....will never ever become a person. There is no arbitrary line being drawn....this is simply a brute fact of the natural world.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 21, 2014 at 12:06 am
(July 20, 2014 at 10:51 pm)Heywood Wrote: This is a stupid counter argument and I think you know it because it has been explained on this forum several times. A sperm.....by itself....has no future expectation of person-hood. A sperm....by itself....will never ever become a person. There is no arbitrary line being drawn....this is simply a brute fact of the natural world.
You do realize the exact same argument could be leveled against a fetus too, yes? A fetus... by itself... has no future expectation of person-hood. A fetus... by itself... will never ever become a person. Both items, the sperm and the fetus, require action and support from already extant persons to persist long enough to reach the human stage. The line you're drawing is arbitrary, and I think you know that because I distinctly remember that you've been exposed to this counter argument before.
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 21, 2014 at 7:57 am
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2014 at 7:57 am by Dystopia.)
So my people I was wondering something about the whole pro-life pro-choice debate and I thought of something. Why do pro-lifers seem to use the argument of 'but it still should be allowed in cases of rape or malformation' to make themselves seem more open minded?
I though deeper about it and I came to the conclusion you are either pro-choice or pro-life, there's not much sense in making an exception merely for rape, after all, why is a child conceived trough non consented sex less valuable than any other? From the moment we consider a fetus, we have to consider all fetuses as equal by a matter of coherence. The same could be said for fetuses with deficiencies, why are they less valuable than a healthy fetus? According to the pro-life argument, since lives are valuable, you can't make these two last lives be less valuable, they shouldn't be any different or have any less rights than a child planned previously.
So either you are pro-choice and support the right of a woman to have an abortion as an option, no questions asked, even if you consider it immoral in some of those situations, that's a personal choice
Or you are pro-life and make a coherent position without opening up incoherent exceptions for rapes and so on, no fallacies please
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RE: Abortion/Consciousness/Life
July 21, 2014 at 9:48 am
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2014 at 9:50 am by Heywood.)
(July 21, 2014 at 12:06 am)Esquilax Wrote: (July 20, 2014 at 10:51 pm)Heywood Wrote: This is a stupid counter argument and I think you know it because it has been explained on this forum several times. A sperm.....by itself....has no future expectation of person-hood. A sperm....by itself....will never ever become a person. There is no arbitrary line being drawn....this is simply a brute fact of the natural world.
You do realize the exact same argument could be leveled against a fetus too, yes? A fetus... by itself... has no future expectation of person-hood. A fetus... by itself... will never ever become a person. Both items, the sperm and the fetus, require action and support from already extant persons to persist long enough to reach the human stage. The line you're drawing is arbitrary, and I think you know that because I distinctly remember that you've been exposed to this counter argument before.
A fetus isn't by itself unless it is aborted so it is silly to make such an argument. A living fetus in its mother's womb has a future expectation of person-hood.
(July 21, 2014 at 7:57 am)Blackout Wrote: So my people I was wondering something about the whole pro-life pro-choice debate and I thought of something. Why do pro-lifers seem to use the argument of 'but it still should be allowed in cases of rape or malformation' to make themselves seem more open minded?
I though deeper about it and I came to the conclusion you are either pro-choice or pro-life, there's not much sense in making an exception merely for rape, after all, why is a child conceived trough non consented sex less valuable than any other? From the moment we consider a fetus, we have to consider all fetuses as equal by a matter of coherence. The same could be said for fetuses with deficiencies, why are they less valuable than a healthy fetus? According to the pro-life argument, since lives are valuable, you can't make these two last lives be less valuable, they shouldn't be any different or have any less rights than a child planned previously.
So either you are pro-choice and support the right of a woman to have an abortion as an option, no questions asked, even if you consider it immoral in some of those situations, that's a personal choice
Or you are pro-life and make a coherent position without opening up incoherent exceptions for rapes and so on, no fallacies please
Pro-lifers who are okay with abortions in cases of rape or incest are being inconsistent in my opinion.
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