Spare the rod, spoil the child

[Jacob(smooth)]

Get fucked.

You are cute when you're pouty.

I really just don't see why I'm continuing this. You just don't get it.

You're ability to communicate may be somewhat impeded by your method of cummunication. Just sayin.

Yet again you miss the point completely. This is such a fail of an analogy. To say social drinking is anywhere near similar to spanking a child is laughable.

Indeed. But id you look carefully thats not the point I'm making. The point is that saying that minor smacking is wrong because it CAN lead to abuse is much like saying that social drinking is wrong because it CAN lead to alcahol abuse.

The more you call me a theist the more I am getting significantly pissed off with you. I have no interest in debating you.

Oh noes!!

Why not do it yourself?

Because debating is more fun with 2 people and if I pick you'll say I cherry picked a weak one.

Fuck off. Seriously.

No. Seriously.

[Mystical]

The trouble is that they neglect something very basic, very simple, very obvious: each kid is an individual with individual needs and individual disciplinary requirements.
A "one size fits all" recipe will never work.
A book's guidelines will never fit with any particular kid.

This!

And there's the rub.

So let me get this straight. You're saying that whether or not a kid needs spanked, is their fault????

Several posters on here alone have conveyed that spanking is not required. Its a choice. You choose to hit your kid or not. There's aLways an alternative and if parents choose not to follow through with the more taxing alternatives (like taking the dancing climbing kid on a chair to the park to get his energy out), then spanking that child is merely a tool of laziness.
Honestly Jacob, I can't even fathom how your daughter got where she is but I guarantee it has nothing to do with whether or not you spanked her.
I suggest you take the time and do some therapy with her. She seems so far withdrawn from her family that shed call the police on you and you act like this is just normal kid stuff. Maybe in your income bracket kind sir, but not in mine.

Luckie, you said

We aren't talking about the person who occasionally has to refer to a spanking now and then, we are talking about spanking used as corporal punishment. 

That's exactly what I am talking about! What you're talking about is wrong. No doubt, and no argument. If you're using objects or leaving bruises you're harming the child. We're on the same page there I think. But some people on this thread are talking about ALL physical punishment in the same way. That's my point! It's not a black and white issue.

Well, it kinda is. To physically cause pain to your own child through your own actions, or to not. If you believe that certain pain inflicted on children is acceptable, that's fine. But remember first: do no harm. You said present a study and we will take an in depth look at it. I presented two, one of which documents real tangible physical alterations to the brain that are negative. Boru also gave an example of why hitting your kid breaks trust they have for you. The studies I presented that pave the way for medical organizations policies show that spanking doesn't work as an effective tool for discipline when its the only form of discipline. I think you guys are fighting about nothing. Slapping a kids hand to keep them from touching a hot plate and slapping a kids hand for not using the fork right are two totally different scenarios

So, little 4 year old jimmy is standing on a chair and dancing, when you find him.
You bring him down from there and tell him not to do it again, because he may fall and hurt himself badly.

5 minutes later, you find him doing the exact same thing.
You bring him down again and now you raise your voice a bit and let him know that he cannot stand on the chair. You take away the music and the toy he has in his hand.

5 minutes later, he's back there.

So, as a parent, would you rather keep defying odds and keep finding him defying gravity or would you prefer to instill in him the fear of you finding he's dancing in a tall place which he knows (or has been told and has minimally understood) that's potentially bad for him?
Or... please share your ideas on dealing with a kid like this, if you find this is a false dichotomy (which it most likely is!)

Consider the not so distant time when he'll figure out that he can stack chairs or stools and climb them so he can be even higher...

The same for properly packing or storing toys left on the floor where people, including him, can trip, slip and fall.... and so many other situations where, at a young age, hypothetical consequences are less considered than the overseer threat and very possible action...

Life isn't black and white and you can alter future events. Put Jimmy in a timeout after the first warning, for instance. Make Jimmy go clean his room. Tell Jimmy to go play outside (although this involves work on your part watching him). Take Jimmy to a jungle gym (again, work on your part). At what point do you not realize that referring to spanking for daily living punishments you're merely seeking immediate result at the cost of your Childs psychological well being? The study addressed corporal punishment, not conditional spanking. Depression, aggression, anti social behaviour are the result.

Let me re-iterate this since y'all seem to be getting heated. Conditional spanking and corporal punishment with spanking is not the same thing and is differentiated in the studies.

My point is this: I don't fucking trust people in general to be their own arbiters of justice when it comes to dealing out physical assault on helpless children. A small population of spankers can seem to handle using it as an effective tool, but a majority cannot. Its a social problem.

[Thumpalumpacus]

What you did wasn't punishment. You reacted instinctually to protect your child. I wasn't trying to imply that I thought what you did was wrong. I was just saying I have a hard time understanding why people's gut reaction is to slap the hand away instead of something less violent. Whatever you did, you stopped your baby from getting severely burned so I'd say you made the right choice regardless of whether I would have done it the same way.

Oh, I wasn't reading you that way. But as a parent I was always very aware of the lessons I might be imparting, both intentionally and unintentionally.

When his mother was pregnant, we discussed discipline and punishment and agree that spanking would be permissible, but only when other methods haven't worked. And as I said upthread, I agree with Luckie that once the child can reason, spanking is off the table.

My son's a very smart young man, always has been, and talking about what he did wrong gave much better long-term results. Those talks happened even after he got a swat on the butt.

[Dystopia]

I will have to agree with Napoleon that if a child's education is done properly and other effective forms of discipline are utilized, spanking won't be necessary at all, that's the ideal. I don't blame anyone for spanking their kids within the boundaries, but I think it shouldn't be necessary at all. Of course every kid will need a different punishment, some kids are quiet, others are hyperactive, but corporal punishment shouldn't be an option. Sure I got a few slaps in the butt once in a while, but the same result could be achieved without any physical pain, if there is a less hurtful way of raising your kids with the same result, you should choose the former.

[vorlon13]

I recall a friend of mine in high school that wanted beatings for discipline instead of losing his allowance.

LOL!!


I had some cousins that were informed upon going to high school that they could be 'permanently' (till graduation) grounded if caught drinking, speeding, cheating, and a few other infractions.

Being grounded as a freshman is bad, but being ground for doing something as a freshman for up to almost 4 years got their attention. The ultimate punishment was never meted out. And who knows, maybe Uncle T never really meant it, but we'll never know, and it worked.

[Mystical]

I've seen a study recently that when given the choice between a shock or having 15 minutes to your own thoughts: more people chose the shock.

Making a kid think and discuss how they fucked up is, apparently, a worse punishment in the eyes of the child than a swat which is immediate resolution. I couldn't wait to get the spanking over with especially if we had to travel home or if I had to wait for dad to come home, to do so. I don't remember the swats themselves although I can count on one hand how many I got. I remember the anguish I was in until it was over with, mainly because it was more important for my parents to not be mad at me anymore. I remember a lot of obsessing about whether or not they were mad at me. Don't even remember why I got swatted.

[John V]

I mean, I'm not saying I think it's wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me in that circumstance. When my daughter was 3 almost 4, she looked right at an oncoming car the looked at me and stepped into to the street. I jerked her out of the street by her hair. I felt awful, but it was the only thing I could reach there was no other option and it wasn't about discipline. The discipline was obvious to me, you can't be trusted to be safe so now you don't get to play outside.

Wow, I can't imagine having a small child near a street and not holding their hand the entire time. Did you really need such an incident to know that a 3-year-old can't be trusted to be safe?

[Mystical]

People less advantaged than alpha males live with streets outside their front doors. Navajos lived on cliffs. Some babies live on the street. Kids gotta learn or they'll never cross the street.

Case in point: I have an absolute terror problem with crossing streets because my mum kept me on her hip till I was 17 because of her anxieties about life.

Seriously John, fuck off. You aren't contributing to discussion you're just being a judgemental dick like always.

[pocaracas]

So, little 4 year old jimmy is standing on a chair and dancing, when you find him.
You bring him down from there and tell him not to do it again, because he may fall and hurt himself badly.

5 minutes later, you find him doing the exact same thing.
You bring him down again and now you raise your voice a bit and let him know that he cannot stand on the chair. You take away the music and the toy he has in his hand.

5 minutes later, he's back there.

So, as a parent, would you rather keep defying odds and keep finding him defying gravity or would you prefer to instill in him the fear of you finding he's dancing in a tall place which he knows (or has been told and has minimally understood) that's potentially bad for him?
Or... please share your ideas on dealing with a kid like this, if you find this is a false dichotomy (which it most likely is!)

Consider the not so distant time when he'll figure out that he can stack chairs or stools and climb them so he can be even higher...

The same for properly packing or storing toys left on the floor where people, including him, can trip, slip and fall.... and so many other situations where, at a young age, hypothetical consequences are less considered than the overseer threat and very possible action...

Life isn't black and white and you can alter future events. Put Jimmy in a timeout after the first warning, for instance.

What on Earth is a "timeout"?

Make Jimmy go clean his room.

He's 4, remember... At 4 they clean one item that's lying around and then start playing with another they find... hey, you're on to something...
But 5 minutes later, he's found with that toy standing on the chair, again... now what?!

Tell Jimmy to go play outside (although this involves work on your part watching him).

Real potential scenario: it's raining!
It's been raining all day.
Jimmy went to kids school and had to stay inside all day.
Mum has to make dinner, dad's not home yet.
Can't (shouldn't) have the kid in the kitchen, so it's better to leave him playing in the living room or his room... still, he goes for the chair.

Take Jimmy to a jungle gym (again, work on your part).

First the timeout, now a jungle gym... This being non-native keeps my out of these terms. What's a jungle gym?

At what point do you not realize that referring to spanking for daily living punishments you're merely seeking immediate result at the cost of your Childs psychological well being?

Daily?
I'm assuming sporadic use of a slap to instill fear of future slaps, rendering, in the future, the simple threat of a slap a valid deterrent of an undesired behavior.
It's never supposed to be a daily occurrence. If it happens every day, then something is definitely wrong, I agree.

The study addressed corporal punishment, not conditional spanking. Depression, aggression, anti social behaviour are the result.

Let me re-iterate this since y'all seem to be getting heated. Conditional spanking and corporal punishment with spanking is not the same thing and is differentiated in the studies.

ooops.
Must have missed that detail...
my bad.

My point is this: I don't fucking trust people in general to be their own arbiters of justice when it comes to dealing out physical assault on helpless children. A small population of spankers can seem to handle using it as an effective tool, but a majority cannot. Its a social problem.

Yep, that's why I agreed, earlier, with the general advice given by all (or most) of these studies and institutions: never hit the kids. At least, it will make the parents aware of that potential problem and cause them to withhold larger spankings.

[Dystopia]

I've seen a study recently that when given the choice between a shock or having 15 minutes to your own thoughts: more people chose the shock.

Making a kid think and discuss how they fucked up is, apparently, a worse punishment in the eyes of the child than a swat which is immediate resolution. I couldn't wait to get the spanking over with especially if we had to travel home or if I had to wait for dad to come home, to do so. I don't remember the swats themselves although I can count on one hand how many I got. I remember the anguish I was in until it was over with, mainly because it was more important for my parents to not be mad at me anymore. I remember a lot of obsessing about whether or not they were mad at me. Don't even remember why I got swatted.

I was punished by the 15 (and sometimes more) minutes of reflection and a correctional conversation, it was hard and in a certain way made me feel bad about myself and miserable, but in a good way because I later changed my attitudes and improved myself, so I guess that method must work really well. Now, if a child doesn't respect their parents, a conversation will be useless, the child will just pretend to listen and then go back and repeat the offence. Since I started respecting my parents from a very early age, I never had that problem, but then again, parents who don't teach their kids basic respect and family values from the beginning are risking raising a child with lots of behavioral problems. I already gave the example of my aunt, she had 3 babies in a period of 6 years, she always let them do whatever they wanted to do, now they are older (the older one is 10 years old) and they misbehave all the time, she has serious trouble controlling them. Some parents should learn to say no.