How do you know you'll still be you when you get to heaven?

[Violet]

No kidding, I was stunned at the depiction of Hell in "The Devil in Miss Jones".

Cinder block walls ? Eternal abstinence ?


I remember my shock and surprise at the ending more than the rest of the movie.

Define.... 'abstinence'?

... How thick are these walls?

[vorlon13]

As I recall the plot, and please, anyone jump in if I don't remember it accurately, I haven't seen the movie in 35 years, is like this:

Miss Jones commits suicide as a virgin. She protests being condemned to Hell since she didn't really sin much prior to her death.

It is agreed she can return to earth for a specific time to sin all she wants so she will feel she deserves hell.

She fucks.

A lot!!

Oh, my, first time I saw double entry.


Anyhow, she screws her brains out (even with my young gay sensibilities I was impressed with her enthusiasm) and then is sent to Hell.

Only now, since she REALLY, REALLY, REALLY likes sex, for her, Hell is going to be abstinence.

Probably my first exposure to 'ironic punishment'.

[Violet]

You might be surprised what someone can do with a concrete wall, if given eternity.

[Esquilax]

Ah, Esq, you make it easy. In our lifetime? Piece of cake....

Got any dates for any of that? I mean, it's funny how different your predictions are, when compared to your postdictions: before you were referencing specific events with such specificity, talking about the dates they happened and their numerical significance... I thought that was the stuff these bible predictions were made of?

Or is it just events that have conveniently already happened, that are like that? Because when you're asked to produce the same kind of thing for the future, you don't; instead we get vaguely worded things without the dates, and only the most general of time frames. Why, it's almost as if you were just retrofitting events into the bible's generic language before, to make it seem more prophetic than the words in the book actually are! hock:

[Ben Davis]

---

Shaman,
Got a mirror?

Ah, Esq, you make it easy. In our lifetime? Piece of cake....

Rapture (attributed to UFOs by the medias and govt.) /
Israel takes out Iranian nuke site.

Worldwide economic depression (Israel heavily blamed).

Islamics backed by Russia march against Israel with world opinion in agreement/
the attackers destroyed by acts of God (obvious to all).
The clear divine intervention on behalf of Israel sparks the last great Move of God before the 2nd Coming-
the Harvest with power in the lives of Christians, but with persecution. Like at the beginning.

At the same time, the 2 beasts of Revelation become fully possessed by fallen angels.
They begin to demand recognition of the first beast as the Jewish Messiah, Christian Christ, Muslim Mahdi, New Age Avatar, UFO appointee, etc.

Natural disasters increase. The Harvest increases.

The final war of the age begins within 7 years of the Catching Away (the Rapture).
As the first beast rallies his forces to take control of Jerusalem.
He meets opposition from the north and east.
These armies converge on a vast, natural battleground called the valley of Megiddo (Armageddon).
All these armies are destroyed at the 2nd. Coming.

The Restoration of all things begins.

No one has been given the timing.
We have the Bible, we get clues, words, visions, dreams, visitations.

We (who want to know) have been told over and over, who the AC is, we have the prophecies and numerical significances to the moon stacked up about him
- the mystery man who arose out of nowhere.

We have been told exactly who the False Prophet is, we have the prophecies of Malachi pegging him, and again, prophecies with numerical details involved.

We have a time reference in the Creation week / thousand year periods pointing to now.
The 120th Jubilee is looming (marking the end of 6000 yrs (man's lease that the devil obtained)

The elete have caused the entire world to be drunk with debt.
Not one country has anything but fiat currency. This is intentional.

A crisis is created out of which CHANGE is forged- standard Marxist sequence.

The book of Daniel says the fake messiah would seek to CHANGE the laws and times.
Didn't someone have a political platform of CHANGE?

Besides the increase in natural disasters (especially earthquakes) occurring on a larger scale this decade, two full pages of mass animal, fish and bird die-offs have been recorded in the last couple of years. Media silent.

Israel is defending itself against the insects living in the web of Iran.
Israel has no choice but to take out the spider.
Time is not on their side.

It is interesting that one of the verses speaking of the Rapture says,
the Day of the Lord would be preceeded by a "Falling away".
The word translated that way in the Greek means: Departure- like a ship leaving, and it is the word Aposticia (spell?).
When it comes to pass, both a falling away (apostasy-which we see all around- also noted in a prior post with regard to the entourage to beast #2) AND departure (from here) will have occurred.

Personally, I do not expect this to happen in a lifetime.
I expect it to come within a decade. Probably less.

---

Ah, Esq, you make it easy. In our lifetime? Piece of cake....

No one has been given the timing.
We have the Bible, we get clues, words, visions, dreams, visitations.

So first you contradict yourself then you admit you can't actually meet Esqui's challenge as you can't give accurate predictions as to when these things will happen.

Harold Camping would be proud.

[RobbyPants]

One of the big questions that I like to ask about heaven is: is there free will in heaven? Because one of the most common things I hear theists say is that God doesn't directly and indisputably reveal himself to every individual because he doesn't want to break their free will by forcing belief in and worship of himself upon them. However in heaven one would assume that the existence and character of God would be indisputable and directly present to everyone, so they lose the ability to disbelieve. It seems like heaven would be full of robots.

Exactly. As much as Christians will fap to free will to solve theodicy, the standard notion of heaven tends to completely unravel that. They're left with three options:

1) No free will in heaven. Then why is it so important for 80 years on Earth if we live for infinity years in heaven without it?

2) Free will in heaven, but we just always choose to be good. Then why are we able to be bad here on earth?

3) God needs to test us before we can be rewarded with heaven. Why? It is either arbitrary or a system to which a non-omnipotent god is bound.

As soon as they admit to an (eternal!) existence where free will is no longer important, their whole world view surrounding the problem of evil falls apart. I've never gotten a good answer to that. The best I get is apologists trying to run a wide enough circle long enough hoping that I don't notice when they come back to where they started. It's a lot of bouncing back and forth between "God is great and all powerful", "God can't see the future and needs to test us", "God is just and needs to punish wickedness", and "God needs to know who really loves him. Do you want to be a robot?".

[Cyberman]

I'm sure the folks in Hell having molten iron poured into their bodies cavities can feel it.

FOREVER.

That's the point, eternal torment.


Imagine being put in a giant blender, set on liquify, and you can feel it pureeing your being, FOREVER.

Imagine being devoured by rabid animals, and you're fully conscious, and it lasts FOREVER.

Imagine being boiled, upside down, so you are drowning too, in sewage, FOREVER.

Imagine being flattened by a 10,000 ton press, FOREVER.



And all that is in the 'nice ' part of Hell.

Yes, but at least it's something to do of an evening. In 'heaven', all you apparently get to do is sit around with a multitude of glassy-eyed pious cunts for eternity, all telling "God" how big he is. Call me Mr Picky, but sixty seconds of that and I'm tunnelling out.

[John V]

Supposedly when you accept Yahweh/Allah/Jesus into your heart, he takes out all the parts he doesn't like, and the rest goes to be with him in heaven. Except that people are the sum of their parts. If you take away their life experiences, how can you say they will be themselves anymore? How is that different from having a lobotomy? You might say that it just removes the darker parts, but leaves the lighter parts, but the dark and the light are still parts of you. You just wouldn't be the same if you took out chunks of your life and thoughts and replace them with whatever another person finds more acceptable.

I'm not the same person I was a year ago, or ten years ago, etc. I'll be different 10 years from now, having gained some experiences and forgotten others. Doesn't bother me here, so I don't see why it would bother me in heaven.

[professor]

Hi Esq,
Remember, I said no one gets the dates.
In general, prophecy from the Bible gets understood after it comes to pass.

The Jews had a puzzle about their Messiah,
Born of a virgin, out of Egypt, born in Bethlehem of Ephratah (there were 2 cities named such), from the lineage of David, etc.
They were given the exact timing he would come- from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, yet they tripped over the outcome.

From the Bible, there were a couple people aware of the timing of their visitation.
One of the priests and his wife. That's it.

Today, out of 7 billion people there are a similar percentage of watchful people aware of where we are in time.
Unlike the OT folk, we do not have a word about the exact time of visitation.

A plus for you guys is when we leave- you will know what you need to do.
A negative for you guys is you will have to endure the worst time imaginable-
Because you (like the Jews of Old) missed the time of Departure. Just as in the days of Noah.

Jesus said it would be like the days of Noah when He COMES.
Noah went UP over the flood.
He then said it would be like the days of Lot when He is REVEALED.
Two different concepts.
Lot stayed on terra-firma and was removed from the place of destruction, but lost everything.
Lot = Jesus' revealing Himself to the nations at His 2nd Coming.
Again the sequence- a departure (the Rapture) first, then judgment falls.

I want to add here, that the judgment to come will be in response to the increasing evil (we currently observe), perpetrators of violence and judgment on the beast system in place now and increasing.

[Chad32]

Supposedly when you accept Yahweh/Allah/Jesus into your heart, he takes out all the parts he doesn't like, and the rest goes to be with him in heaven. Except that people are the sum of their parts. If you take away their life experiences, how can you say they will be themselves anymore? How is that different from having a lobotomy? You might say that it just removes the darker parts, but leaves the lighter parts, but the dark and the light are still parts of you. You just wouldn't be the same if you took out chunks of your life and thoughts and replace them with whatever another person finds more acceptable.

I'm not the same person I was a year ago, or ten years ago, etc. I'll be different 10 years from now, having gained some experiences and forgotten others. Doesn't bother me here, so I don't see why it would bother me in heaven.

Is that because you grew as an individual, or because someone gave you a lobotomy? There's a difference. Despite christians claiming they are "born anew" when they accept Jesus down here, they haven't really changed all that much. They still sin. they still go through the same temptations that everyone else has.

I may not be the same person I was ten years ago, but that's because I changed little by little over time, and I changed because I decided to. Not because someone else removed everything about me that they didn't like.