After I know this how could I leave the church?

[sophonian]

I know that you are going to laugh. I only hope an explanation for this. I would like to think that these facts were not true. I was more happy when i was not a christian.

Tertullian was a roman lawyer that becomecome a christian. He had access to roman documents and made some declarations about 1st century A.D like this:

Tiberius6 accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favour of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians. [3] Consult your histories; you will there find that Nero was the first who assailed with the imperial sword the Christian sect, making profess then especially at Rome.

The thing that dont let me go from christianity is the fact that he says that in roman documents it is registered that when Jesus died there was a big portent in the sky; so we are not talking about an story recorded only in the gospels.

He exhibited many notable signs, by which His death was distinguished from all others. At His own free-will, He with a word dismissed from Him His spirit, anticipating the executioner's work. In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives.

[FatAndFaithless]

Romans saw protents in hawks flying over their armies, dark clouds, rainstorms, and patterns of blood...I wouldn't give any credence to them seeing a portent when Jesus apparently died.

[pocaracas]

jeez, it's almost like no one has ever lied for their religion...

Where are these documents detailing the big portent?

Didn't something similar happen when Mohamed rose to the heavens in his winged horse?

[Ben Davis]

---

I know that you are going to laugh. I only hope an explanation for this. I would like to think that these facts were not true. I was more happy when i was not a christian.

Tertullian was a roman lawyer that becomecome a christian. He had access to roman documents and made some declarations about 1st century A.D like this:

Tiberius6 accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favour of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians. [3] Consult your histories; you will there find that Nero was the first who assailed with the imperial sword the Christian sect, making profess then especially at Rome.

The thing that dont let me go from christianity is the fact that he says that in roman documents it is registered that when Jesus died there was a big portent in the sky; so we are not talking about an story recorded only in the gospels.

He exhibited many notable signs, by which His death was distinguished from all others. At His own free-will, He with a word dismissed from Him His spirit, anticipating the executioner's work. In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives.

---

to the forum! If you'd like to tell us a little more about yourself, you can do it in the Introductions section here.

Ah yes, Tertullian. Commonly used 'historical proof' of the historicity of a divine Jesus. Unfortunately, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Firstly, Tertullian was a Christian author therefore a certain level of bias can't be ruled out. Secondly, he was writing ~150 years after the purported death of Jesus so his account can't be considered reliable. Thirdly, he was the man who first formalised the concept of Trinity (it was the Tertullian model which was formed in to doctrine at the Council of Nicea) and as a consequence, there are many records of his life & work; in fact more is recorded about him and his life than about Jesus thus reinforcing the point that if the messiah had been wandering around, as claimed in the bible, performing miracles etc., there would be many independently verifiable accounts of his life.

[FatAndFaithless]

---

I know that you are going to laugh. I only hope an explanation for this. I would like to think that these facts were not true. I was more happy when i was not a christian.

Tertullian was a roman lawyer that becomecome a christian. He had access to roman documents and made some declarations about 1st century A.D like this:


The thing that dont let me go from christianity is the fact that he says that in roman documents it is registered that when Jesus died there was a big portent in the sky; so we are not talking about an story recorded only in the gospels.

---

to the forum! If you'd like to tell us a little more about yourself, you can do it in the Introductions section here.

Ah yes, Tertullian. Commonly used 'historical proof' of the historicity of a divine Jesus. Unfortunately, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Firstly, Tertullian was a Christian author therefore a certain level of bias can't be ruled out. Secondly, he was writing ~150 years after the purported death of Jesus so his account can't be considered reliable. Thirdly, he was the man who first formalised the concept of Trinity (it was the Tertullian model which was formed in to doctrine at the Council of Nicea) and as a consequence, there are many records of his life & work; in fact more is recorded about him and his life than about Jesus thus reinforcing the point that if the messiah had been wandering around, as claimed in the bible, performing miracles etc., there would be many independently verifiable accounts of his life.

Plus, I believe he was the guy who said that one of the perks of being in Heaven was being able to watch all the sinners get tortured in Hell. What a guy!

[Michael]

Hi Ben

As a Christian, I would be wary of putting too much weight on this. As a Christian, this can be used as secondary supportive material. But if you're not a Christian there are ways to reject it. I think the primary reason for being a Christian, or at least starting to walk down that path, is always the question of whether you find Jesus a compelling character: a person, or even an idea, that you think leads us somewhere better than where we are right now.

[Diablo]

Welcome to the forum.



That has to be the weakest reason I've ever heard for signing up to a whole new belief system. Are you actually serious, or just winding us up?

[Bibliofagus]

You'd think a church father such as Tertullian would have made some copies of such important records. Especially because he had a vested interest.

Now that I think about it... The bible was canonized by Romans... Why didn't they include some of these records in it?

[Michael]

Bibliofagus, one of the 'rules' of canonisation was that they must have been derived from apostolic times or earlier, and they must have had use in the church's liturgy. But it's worth also noting the early Church had a high view of other writings, such as those of the church fathers, or the Didache. It is perhaps a little anachronistic to look back at other early writings with post-Reformation eyes.

[sophonian]

Thanks for all your answers

You'd think a church father such as Tertullian would have made some copies of such important records. Especially because he had a vested interest.

Now that I think about it... The bible was canonized by Romans... Why didn't they include some of these records in it?

Tertullian was converted to christian religion about 200 A.C. Before that, he had been an importante lawyer (according wikipedia). But I dont think he could take these archives from a roman chamber like one who take a book from a library and make copies. I dont see how he can lie when he says the romans should read their archives to validate the portent at Jesus death.

If I am not mistaken, christanity was not accepted as an official religion by romans until much later.