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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 9, 2014 at 8:17 am
(This post was last modified: September 9, 2014 at 8:29 am by Mudhammam.)
(September 9, 2014 at 7:29 am)bennyboy Wrote: By metainformation, I mean information about information: where, exactly, does it come from? Why does it exist? What, if anything, does it "really" represent?
Is it really just photons entering the eye in a physically monist universe, or is the entire physical universe the idealization of raw information that itself is not part of such a framework? There's a part of me that thinks such an "ultimate" or "ideal reality" is fundamentally unknowable, yet I'm also inclined to the notion that such a concept is also fundamentally meaningless... that "ultimate reality" really is what we discover through the our instruments, the telescope, microscope, mathematical models, etc... perhaps it is, similar to the ancient suspicions of Democritus and the Epicureans, "nothing but" a field of wavicles in perpetual flux.
Quote:It follows just fine. It means that you have accepted that the physical universe exists as something beyond experience, concept or idea, and that our perceptions are representations of information from that universe. So you must be either a physical monist or a dualist, but cannot be an idealist.
Yeah, I think I identify most with the writings of physical monists.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 9, 2014 at 11:37 am
(This post was last modified: September 9, 2014 at 11:47 am by The Grand Nudger.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 9, 2014 at 11:40 am
(September 8, 2014 at 7:53 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (September 8, 2014 at 11:16 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Within a naturalistic paradigm the term "multiple realizable" is used to describe mind supported by various platforms. The word transcendent has metaphysical/spiritual connotations that could be unintended. I've spent a couple hours thinking about this, due to comments on my thread about transcendence. I don't mind the connotations you're talking about, because metaphysics means basically "the physics of physics," i.e. the underlying principles on which mechanical interactions rely. That some people use it to talk about ghosts, OBEs, etc. is irrelevant. Even though I know what you mean by transcendent, some of the less philosophically minded members will not. The connotations prompt idiots to mention ectoplasm, ghosts, and such.
(September 8, 2014 at 7:53 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Rhythm's idea is a good one in that it at least identifies an observable and easy-to-understand principle on which mind might depend: the ability of a mechanism to make logical comparisons. I disagree. A brute force chess program seems to satisfy that requirement and sets the bar far too low. To distinguish between the semblance of consciousness and actual consciousness, someone needs to find something that consciousness and only consciousness can influence. I realize that pseudoskeptics cannot fathom this as a possibility but I think the best candidate would be some kind of psionic ability, like presentiment.
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 10, 2014 at 2:40 am
(This post was last modified: September 10, 2014 at 2:41 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You think that the ability to make logical comparisons is setting the bar too low...but a superpower would be just right? Does that mean that anything without said superpower doesn't make the cut? Guess we're all SOL.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 10, 2014 at 8:14 am
(September 10, 2014 at 2:40 am)Rhythm Wrote: You think that the ability to make logical comparisons is setting the bar too low...but a superpower would be just right? Does that mean that anything without said superpower doesn't make the cut? Guess we're all SOL.
You really should update yourself with the most recent psi research. Presentiment in humans is more statistically significant than the efficacy of aspirin.
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 10, 2014 at 12:14 pm
(This post was last modified: September 10, 2014 at 12:16 pm by Surgenator.)
(September 10, 2014 at 8:14 am)ChadWooters Wrote: You really should update yourself with the most recent psi research. Presentiment in humans is more statistically significant than the efficacy of aspirin.
Please update us on this research
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 10, 2014 at 6:09 pm
(September 10, 2014 at 8:14 am)ChadWooters Wrote: (September 10, 2014 at 2:40 am)Rhythm Wrote: You think that the ability to make logical comparisons is setting the bar too low...but a superpower would be just right? Does that mean that anything without said superpower doesn't make the cut? Guess we're all SOL.
You really should update yourself with the most recent psi research. Presentiment in humans is more statistically significant than the efficacy of aspirin. Okay, link again. But I'd really like to see an article by a skeptical group, hopefully at a university, which managed to reproduce some experimental results.
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 11, 2014 at 11:46 am
(September 10, 2014 at 6:09 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (September 10, 2014 at 8:14 am)ChadWooters Wrote: You really should update yourself with the most recent psi research. Presentiment in humans is more statistically significant than the efficacy of aspirin. Okay, link again. But I'd really like to see an article by a skeptical group, hopefully at a university, which managed to reproduce some experimental results. http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/1...00390/full
FYI It should come as no surprise that the only people performing psi studies are psi researchers. After all, molecular biologists, not stage magicians, perform molecular biology experiments.
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 11, 2014 at 1:10 pm
Okay, that link looks pretty sound. It will take some time to wade through it though.
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RE: On naturalism and consciousness
September 11, 2014 at 2:36 pm
I think this study is flawed because they're comparing a random distributions to random with feedback distribution. If the random distribution these studies use is uniform, then it has an inherent bais if you add feedback. Uniform distributions have memory (statistical speaking). Feedback gives the user a higher chance of guessing which direction (emotional->neutral or neutral->emotional) because they know what was the previous state. That would explain why they're getting such a small correlation since it is a weak effect. There possible explanations sections does not address my objection.
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