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Question for Atheists
#1
Question for Atheists
Hi! I've been trying for a while now I get an atheist's response to a particular line of thinking, but have thus far been unable to help anyone understand it or give a coherent thought about it. I'm hoping here is a better place to find some discussion on the matter!

If the universe is entirely material (which it must be under atheistic thinking), then everything that exists or happens is fundamentally just chemicals reacting. Chemicals, however, cannot act reasonably or morally. We can't take one test tube and say that the mixture in it is "more right" than the one in another tube. Natural laws simply dictate their behavior.

Humans and their thoughts and beliefs, as parts of the universe, are merely chemicals as well. Every idea is a natural string of reactions in the brain. The reactions in one mind lead someone to be an atheist while the reactions in another mind lead to a theist. Sort of like different outcomes in two test tubes.

On what basis then can we say that one thought or belief is more rational than another? Dead chemistry can't be spoken of in terms of reason. We are all parts and products of a giant chemical universe, atheists and theists alike. How can the universe be behaving unreasonably in one place but not in another? It just is. Lines of reasoning become totally subjective since we are all slaves to our particular chemistry. But if reason is subjective, we lose any grounds we had of evaluating statements. If my chemistry makes me think you are unreasonable and yours does the opposite in your brain, since no reaction can be said to be rationally superior to another, then there can be no meaningful debate. Ideas are all equally natural. Isn't that kind of a problem?
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#2
RE: Question for Atheists
(August 25, 2014 at 12:14 am)WonderStruck Wrote: Hi! I've been trying for a while now I get an atheist's response to a particular line of thinking, but have thus far been unable to help anyone understand it or give a coherent thought about it. I'm hoping here is a better place to find some discussion on the matter!
Regular nest of vipers. I'm sure you'll get plenty of opinions.

Quote:If the universe is entirely material (which it must be under atheistic thinking), then everything that exists or happens is fundamentally just chemicals reacting. Chemicals, however, cannot act reasonably or morally. We can't take one test tube and say that the mixture in it is "more right" than the one in another tube. Natural laws simply dictate their behavior.
Believe we have a few atheists on the board who would love to dispute the "entirely material" portion of this. Frankly, it's simply not required to be an atheist, nor does being an atheist imply that you -must- be any manner of materialist. The second bit, well. I assume that you're wondering how someone can think of themselves as "just chemicals" so, the claim that chemicals simply cant do -this- or -that- is probably going to hit a brick wall with someone who thinks that they are, in fact "just chemicals".

Quote:Humans and their thoughts and beliefs, as parts of the universe, are merely chemicals as well. Every idea is a natural string of reactions in the brain. The reactions in one mind lead someone to be an atheist while the reactions in another mind lead to a theist. Sort of like different outcomes in two test tubes.
A little more complicated than a couple of test tubes, but yeah, sure.

Quote:On what basis then can we say that one thought or belief is more rational than another?
On the basis of what is reasonable, as defined by that system.

Quote:Dead chemistry can't be spoken of in terms of reason.
Of course they can, but why are we talking about "dead" chemicals all of a sudden?

Quote: We are all parts and products of a giant chemical universe, atheists and theists alike. How can the universe be behaving unreasonably in one place but not in another?
How can it be raining in Detroit but not Chicago?

Quote: It just is. Lines of reasoning become totally subjective since we are all slaves to our particular chemistry. But if reason is subjective, we lose any grounds we had of evaluating statements.
Hardly, of course the -products- of reason often end up being subjective. We have to plug things into reason to get anything out of it - those things will be tied very directly to us, and not always to the world around us. That's why it's so important to try and ensure that those things we plug in resemble the world beyond, and not merely the world within. GIGO

Quote:If my chemistry makes me think you are unreasonable and yours does the opposite in your brain, since no reaction can be said to be rationally superior to another, then there can be no meaningful debate. Ideas are all equally natural. Isn't that kind of a problem?
Sure, but probably a problem of your own creation, don't you think?
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#3
RE: Question for Atheists
Aren't natural laws merely a description of behaviour that is predictable?
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#4
RE: Question for Atheists
The whole universe is a dead non thinking universe except for those chemicals which have formed in such a way that has allowed for what we call "life".

And some "life" have the ability to think up some pretty creative concepts.
(From the brilliant to the ridiculous)

The second sentence does not nullify the first. Never. My 2cents.
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Know God, Know fear.
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#5
RE: Question for Atheists
(August 25, 2014 at 12:14 am)WonderStruck Wrote: Hi! I've been trying for a while now I get an atheist's response to a particular line of thinking, but have thus far been unable to help anyone understand it or give a coherent thought about it. I'm hoping here is a better place to find some discussion on the matter!

Hi, welcome aboard. So long as you don't mind swearing and getting a rough time of things for what we see as bad arguments, you'll be fine. We warm up quickly if you're willing to speak reasonably with us. Tongue

... Most of us, anyway.

Quote:If the universe is entirely material (which it must be under atheistic thinking),

There needs to be a correction here: the universe "must" be material, for an atheist? Methinks you're mistaking "christian god," for "every immaterial thing there could ever be." But that's not the case. The only requirement for atheism is disbelief in god claims, every other possible claim there could ever be, ever, is still open to us. So when you say we're bound to think that the universe is only material, my answer is that no that's not true.

Personally, I'm happy to just say that I don't know if there's anything "beyond" the material universe, because that's the truth. I don't know, and so far nobody has been able to produce a reason to believe that there is, that would demonstrate that they know. The only rational course is to believe in what's demonstrable and to withhold judgment on anything else.

Quote: then everything that exists or happens is fundamentally just chemicals reacting. Chemicals, however, cannot act reasonably or morally. We can't take one test tube and say that the mixture in it is "more right" than the one in another tube. Natural laws simply dictate their behavior.

We get this a lot. It's not particularly true either, since there's nothing specifically in a materialist viewpoint that precludes the existence of a self aware reasoning process arising from sufficiently complex material components. I would argue that this is what we see in consciousness, though I would also note that that whole area isn't too well understood yet.

Besides, "reasonable" behaviors arise from observations of the material world, and morality is borne of conscious beings constructing a system of acceptable behavior based on their evolved social instincts and the physical realities around them. Neither of those requires anything more than what we see in nature to begin with.

Quote:Humans and their thoughts and beliefs, as parts of the universe, are merely chemicals as well.

Does that make you uncomfortable?

Quote: Every idea is a natural string of reactions in the brain. The reactions in one mind lead someone to be an atheist while the reactions in another mind lead to a theist. Sort of like different outcomes in two test tubes.

I notice that, though you disagree, you don't seem particularly interested in presenting evidence for whatever soul or awareness or what have you that forms ideas in place of these chemical reactions. What that means is that you aren't presenting an alternative case, you're making something called an "appeal to consequences" fallacy: "If you were right, this bad thing would be true, which means you must be wrong."

The potential consequences of something has no bearing on whether that thing is true or not, though. So, at best, all this is is an attempt to scare us- and possibly yourself- away from what you perceive to be the atheist mindset. It's not particularly compelling.

Quote:On what basis then can we say that one thought or belief is more rational than another?

Based upon how well it reflects observed reality. Irrespective of how our thoughts form, they are still observations of something objective that we can monitor, after all.

Quote: Dead chemistry can't be spoken of in terms of reason.

"Dead chemistry" is a characterization that you won't find many atheists agreeing with, if any at all. Mainly, it's a strawman set up by theists in an attempt to silence us, without bothering to see if we actually accept it or not first.

Quote: We are all parts and products of a giant chemical universe, atheists and theists alike. How can the universe be behaving unreasonably in one place but not in another? It just is.

And if one part of the universe is making a claim about another part of the universe that does not reflect the objective reality of the scenario, then the former part of the universe is claiming something that's a little thing we call "untrue."

Quote: Lines of reasoning become totally subjective since we are all slaves to our particular chemistry.

Not where they concern the real world and the logical absolutes, they don't.

Quote:But if reason is subjective, we lose any grounds we had of evaluating statements. If my chemistry makes me think you are unreasonable and yours does the opposite in your brain, since no reaction can be said to be rationally superior to another, then there can be no meaningful debate. Ideas are all equally natural. Isn't that kind of a problem?

It's only a problem if you can find someone to agree with everything you've said above. I doubt you'll be able to do that, though I'm sure that, curiously, you'll find many theists that are all too eager to tell you that's what we atheists think, especially among the ranks of the presuppositionalists.

I wonder why that number would be so high, while the number of atheists saying they believe that would be so low? Thinking
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#6
RE: Question for Atheists
'Atheistic thinking'

*sigh* I was an atheist far before I could comprehend or was even aware of matters of the universe. And so were you.
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#7
RE: Question for Atheists
(August 25, 2014 at 12:14 am)WonderStruck Wrote: On what basis then can we say that one thought or belief is more rational than another?

Results. There seems to be an inverse relationship between the power of an idea to bring harm or death to humans, and our deeming it moral.

I certainly hope your mileage doesn't vary. Smile

Quote:Lines of reasoning become totally subjective since we are all slaves to our particular chemistry.

Non sequitur.

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#8
RE: Question for Atheists
Dead chemicals. LOL.

Your dead chemicals are capable of some pretty amazing stuff. They can convert photons hitting the retina of an eye into vivid color 3d images of the world around us. They can convert small variations in pressure into sounds and recognize the sources of the sounds. They can store and recall memories. They can even produce false memories of things that never happened. But apparently dead chemicals can’t come up with E=MC2 because that would make baby Jesus cry.
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#9
RE: Question for Atheists
Funny, I had this argument topic brought up by my dad several weeks ago.

Here's the WONDERFUL LITTLE DETAIL everyone making your side of the argument seems to miss: Intelligence and mental phenomena are what are known as "emergent phenomena/characteristics", something that happens when a definable system occurs. In this case, it's the brain. Brains make observations through senses, actual DATA is collected. Scientists somewhere were able to form fuzzy images based on MRI scans (or some other kind of advanced scan, maybe EEG?) of human subjects. Then, that data is processed through neural networks, and chemicals are at the very very very low end of the totem pole of the mechanic.

What this argument amounts to is this: "How do computers work if all they can do is talk in ones and zeroes?" Because in programming, there's high level language, which can be Named Languages like Python, Matlab, etc.. Gaming Engines also fall into the "High-level language, HLL" category. Below that, there are mid and low level languages, which parse out the complex commands given by HLLs into many more, but much simpler commands. Eventually, it gets down to "Is this one circuit ON or OFF?" which is either a 1 or a 0. Thus, a computer operates on 1s and 0s, but that's not the extent of it, there's way too much going on upstairs to say that computing is "Just 1s and 0s".
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#10
RE: Question for Atheists
(August 25, 2014 at 12:14 am)WonderStruck Wrote: Chemicals, however, cannot act reasonably or morally.

I've never seen a test tube of water berate a homosexual, unlike many Christians....
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