Secularist Anne Marie Waters on Islam

[Mystic]

The verses in Quran if read logically obviously teach peace as a primary principle, war in self defense, and freedom of religion. This is obvious to people acquainted with the whole Quran and take a holistic approach.

No.. later versions are more violent, and by tradition the latter versions should be followed..

The verses you are thinking about have to be read in context of the other verses. You should take a holistic approach.

Obviously if Quran was revealed by God, the former verses don't lose their eternal meaning in their context as neither do the later ones. It's just a matter of seeing the overall picture they are painting.

And it's as I said, peace as a primary principle, war in self defense, and freedom of religion.

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The verses in Quran if read logically obviously teach peace as a primary principle, war in self defense, and freedom of religion. This is obvious to people acquainted with the whole Quran and take a holistic approach.

It's a pity that "war as self defense" has been ignored throughout history by Islamic nations.

The rulers didn't just ignore it attacking other nations, they killed their own citizen particularly the Shias, as well. The governments were unjust. But that's the fault of Muslims, not the founder of the religion.

[Tobie]

The rulers didn't just ignore it attacking other nations, they killed their own citizen particularly the Shias, as well. The governments were unjust. But that's the fault of Muslims, not the founder of the religion.

I was referring to the whole "spread by the sword" thing the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphates did; it doesn't bode well when that's how they start.

[lifesagift]

[quote='MysticKnight' pid='745031' dateline='1410041123']The verses you are thinking about have to be read in context of the other verses. You should take a holistic approach.
[quote='Tobie' pid='745028' dateline='1410040978']
it doesn't matter what one person says about interpretation.. with respect.

But what matters is how the masses interpret a text.. and if the masses are poorer or less well educated, then they believe it more, A

[Mystic]

The way I explained it is how it is generally interpreted by the masses. The masses don't believe converting people by the sword.

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The rulers didn't just ignore it attacking other nations, they killed their own citizen particularly the Shias, as well. The governments were unjust. But that's the fault of Muslims, not the founder of the religion.

I was referring to the whole "spread by the sword" thing the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphates did; it doesn't bode well when that's how they start.

Sunni Islam can't really escape the actions of the first 3 Caliphs because they do believe they are rightly guided, but I'm not all too sure they were offensive wars as opposed to defensive. I would say the worse war by the 3 Caliphs was the one Abu Baker did against a portion of his own citizens for not paying Zakat to him. As for Shia Islam, they don't believe the first 3 Caliphs were guided, and Imam Ali didn't wage war against other nations for conquest and neither did Imam Hassan.

[DeistPaladin]

war in self defense

The sticky part is what constitutes "self defense" when dealing with the sensibilities of Islamo-Christians.

It's important to remember that, to them, the mere existence of a non-believer is deeply offensive. There is no way to accommodate their sensibilities. A simple statement of "I don't agree" or "I don't share your views" or "on what evidence do you base any of these beliefs on" are enough to trigger rage.

Islamo-Christianity can't live peacefully with non-believers. These religions want everyone on their knees or in the ground. At best, we might be spared if we agree to remain firmly in the closet.

[Mystic]

Islam allowed intermarriage with Christians and Jews. There are verses that state to be at peace with those at peace with you and it's specifically talking about the pagans. There is another verse that talks about those leaving Islam and says if they offer peace, that they should let be and there is no way against them.

I'm not too familiar with bible teachings, but I know Quran teachings are very peaceful.

The rulers of Muslims were anything but peaceful, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't undermine what's found in the Quran.

[mralstoner]

The verses in Quran if read logically obviously teach peace as a primary principle, war in self defense, and freedom of religion. This is obvious to people acquainted with the whole Quran and take a holistic approach.

That's a lie, made obvious not just by reading the Koran, but by the rapid spread of Islam. When, in history, have whole regions willingly given up their sovereignty to newcomers? Hmm, it doesn't pass the common sense test.

As to the Koran, this video shows the 4 stages of jihad i.e. Mohammed gets progressively more belligerent until his final "revelation" from Allah is unrestrained violent jihad by the sword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FghMGdDd5U8

[Zidneya]

One question. When we hear muslims say that Islam is a peaceful religion what do day say after that? Have anyone heard any examples? Or a reference? Because I've seen the say that a lot however I've haven't seen no evidence to back it up.

[Mudhammam]

I find it strange that a person can claim the Qur'an to be a text even remotely concerned with instilling peaceful relations amongst peoples when so much of it revels in the violent judgments imposed by Allah and his prophet on infidels and kufars.

[downbeatplumb]

Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Think to yourself why you had to add the "but I'm not racist" line. You can't separate UKIP from racism, because it isn't your wife's race it's aimed at mainly does not make it not racist.

I have seen a lot of my facebook friends that seem to think the same. I don't know why at times of economic stress people gravitate towards the right wing but it seems to be a thing across the developed world. It's as though when the going gets tough people become short sighted, insular and petty. UKIP are the republican party of the UK.

I've heard this line of reasoning before but I think you are wrong.

No you're wrong.

Listen to this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04bs0m9

UKIP want to return us to pre-world war 2 Britain.

Almost every aspect of their manifesto is either poorly thought through or just worrying.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013...ommitments