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September 6, 2014 at 1:17 am (This post was last modified: September 6, 2014 at 1:22 am by StealthySkeptic.)
The Theist's Post
The entire question of certainty of proof is determined by the person looking at the proofs. If the person looking at the proofs chooses not to look at certain aspects, then those proofs are no more than mere words to him.
In this sense, if we use an example from the Christian Revelation. Christ said that when He came again, every eye would see him and that He would come down on a cloud. Thus, many who proclaim their membership in the Faith of Christ will deny any proofs which do not physically have a person riding on a cloud coming down from outer space. If, as the Baha'is say, these prophesies are symbolic, not literal, they will scoff and deride and refuse to accept. Likewise, they forget that Christ also said that He would come as a thief in the night, and even the owner of the house would not know He was there.
How, by any literal means, could a person resolve this most obvious and extremely apparent conflict between the two statement. They will either, as is done, accept the former and quitely disregard the latter, or they will attempt to resolve the question through interminable and pointless word-bashing.
The very fact of the material discrepany between the two quotes is itself proof that these must be resoolved symbolically. But if one is expecting a literal fulfillment of the first prophecy, then this discrepancy becomes not a proof, but a hindrance.
And so, what you need to first of all define - what, to you, would consist of the proof that you desire. Is it literal proof, or will you accept symbolic proof? If it is only literal proof, then the chances of success are very slim. But if you will also accept symbolic proof, be aware that you will need to be very aware of the need to steer clear of superstition or other mumbo-jumbo.
Then, the hard part, for your own position has been demonstrated, if I may be blunt, to rejecting absolutely anything that the Baha'is consider proof, of spurning any "mystical" or "Spiritual" or "religious" evidence. Are you thus one of those who expect the literal proof as the Christians who expect Jesus to physically ride a cloud from outer space to earth, or one who is prepared to look honestly at the non-literal proofs.
Working from memory, Baha'u'llah defines the process of search in the Kitab-i-Iqan in what has become known as the Tablet of the Seeker. He provides a key. That the heart mmust be cleansed of every trace of love and hate, lest that love incline him to error, or that hate repell him away from the truth. If you wish to see this in application in the materialist world that you choose to inhabit, thanks to free will instead of compulsion, you wll see this principle being adhered to strictly and rigourously. In scientific research. It is in exactly the same way that one must investigare religious truth. Thus, no proof is rejected, no proof is accepted, untill it has passed through the process of comparing them through the hypothesis that God neither exists or does not exist. Let the evidence then produce the weight of proof, not any materialistic or any religious theories as people espouse. After all, this is your life, and your investigation, your free will, and your determination whether to accept truth regardless any personal inclinations or likes or dislikes. And if you allow the least shred of love or hate to come between you and what is truth, you will decrease your chances of success.
But that's ok. This is not a try once or fail forever process. The opportunity gets offered over and over again until it is clear and evident that your choices are absolutely and utterly irrevokeable. Then, and only then, will you be left alone.
Personal belief statement. Except in the very rare instance, I do not believe that any individual makes a decision that cannot be revoked before death. And this is why I said to you in a much earlier thread that it is always possible that you, at that time, may be a true belever, while I may become in your place the atheist. Can you tell the future?
Yet even after the tide of breath has ceased forever, how do we know who will be dealt with by God's Justice and who will be accorded His Mercy? Is becoming "toast", as you have said in another thread, so clear and ovbious? Not until after that last breath has been finished, and we know whether God deals with us with His Justice or His Mercy.
*****
My Response
I would prefer literal proofs, yes, but only because I've exhausted looking at the Abrahamic religions through the "metaphorical" eyes, and even Sikhism, Buddhism, and Taoism, for instance. In the end, it comes down to three types of metaphorical proof: prophecies, holy texts, and mystical experiences. Since I never had mystical experiences, it came down to prophecies that were all too vague to be useful and holy texts that laid on appeals to authority from multiple different self-proclaimed prophets or authors, that seemed, to me, to have little basis in fact (for instance, the claim in the Bible that 500 witnesses saw Jesus rise based on hearsay).
I think that I am a very logically and scientifically oriented person now, after coming from a Catholic faith where I had to accept a LOT of appeals to authority or "mysteries of faith," so I for instance think that the laws of physics as we understand them are valid across the universe because of multiple different and independent observations confirming this to be true. I haven't seen the same with religion- usually adherents one of one religion make some claims using internal logic and claims of infallibility that are easily malleable in case an escape hatch is needed.
Apologies if that seemed blunt, but I don't understand why a deity who actually cares about his creations (as in, non-deistic), would operate the way you claim he does (not getting it right with one prophet, but instead having to send one every thousand years), but would not instead make his existence as obvious as the light of the Sun. (Don't try to appeal to "mysterious ways" or "free will" with me- mysterious reasons for somebody doing something for me equals no reason at all). Just because the Sun exists beyond a doubt and no sane person would claim otherwise does not mean that we have no free will.
Basically, I try to keep my thinking consistent, and since I am a skeptic don't allow for metaphors to get in the way when I investigate a scientific claim and proof for such, I take the same approach to everything in life, including religion.
Luke: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
So called spiritual things cannot be understood by science thinking, science is more towards objective thinking, where religion is more towards subjective thinking, with religion you can only describe it in metaphorical language, this is the same as mythology, the myth points to that which it is trying to describe in a way we can understand it.
Quote:Not until after that last breath has been finished, and we know whether God deals with us with His Justice or His Mercy.
Convenient for the man who has no evidence to back up his claims.
And whose religion claims:
"Those who have rejected God and firmly cling to Nature as it is in itself are, verily, bereft of knowledge and wisdom. They are truly of them that are far astray. They have failed to attain the lofty summit and have fallen short of the ultimate purpose; therefore their eyes were shut and their thoughts differed, while the leaders among them have believed in God and in His invincible sovereignty. Unto this beareth witness thy Lord, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting."
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
My question to them would be: "Where's the proof in the pudding that's in the eating?" Maybe I'm just tired and mixed my metaphors, but you get the idea.
Luke: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
Quote:In this sense, if we use an example from the Christian Revelation. Christ said that when He came again, every eye would see him and that He would come down on a cloud.
His godboy has all the answers and he feels no need at all to demonstrate that his godboy is real. In fact, he utterly rejects the idea of a need.
(September 6, 2014 at 2:42 am)Minimalist Wrote: He gave you that "answer" right here.
Quote:In this sense, if we use an example from the Christian Revelation. Christ said that when He came again, every eye would see him and that He would come down on a cloud.
His godboy has all the answers and he feels no need at all to demonstrate that his godboy is real. In fact, he utterly rejects the idea of a need.
And apparently holds the idea that all religions are one- except the bad parts that followers added later.
Luke: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
