My Thoughts On Militant Atheism

[Esquilax]

The fall of education has nothing to do with religion, a stupid population is much easier to control than an intelligent one.

Uh, yes it fucking does: just currently there's some controversy over textbooks in Texas that contain known falsehoods made to lionize christianity, and you can just go ahead and google the "Wedge document" to see the lengths christian fundies will go to to disrupt science class in order to spread their dogma. Yet again, you're just wrong, which makes me wonder if you bothered to actually do any research yourself.

The difference between a murderer and a religious person is that one harms someone and the other doesn't.

Without getting too far into details, tell that to my fiancee. She's a member of the forum, you literally can. But then, hearing what she has to say, what a number of other people on this board have to say, might upset your little apple cart, eh?

Once again, I've just got lofty, sweeping generalizations from you, and actual lived evidence of the contrary from other people. Wonder what I should believe?

If a person is a murderer their religion should not be attached to them even if they claim they took such measures for their religion. The mindset of a murderer is different than a non-murderer they are deluded people and regardless of their beliefs they must face the consequences of their actions, atheist or theist.

Wow, I've never seen a person give a No True Every Possible Religion fallacy before. Good job.

You do know that many religions, christianity and islam specifically, literally order its followers to murder people, right?

Your fiancee and other atheists proved it to themselves, and were likely already unsure about their beliefs. The change from theism to atheism is a gradual one from my experience. Faith based queries come before evidence based ones.

Thank you for dismissing the personal journeys of people you've never met, out of hand, simply because they disagree with your presuppositions. If you're not a fundamentalist theist, you'd make a great one.

Oh, by the way, where's your condemnation of the religious? It's seems really weird to me, the way you'll bitch out atheists for saying "you're wrong" to theists, but you'll bend over backwards to preserve the theists from being grouped in with the people who say we atheists deserve to be killed, tortured forever, etc. Not a very consistent stance you've got here.

[FatAndFaithless]

This was clearly a productive and insightful thread that proposed new concepts and ways of thinking that I hadn't considered before. I wish all threads could be like this.

[ShaMan]

...a fool is easily taken advantage of.

(excerpt)

May I see your wallet for a moment please?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Make me. Give me a reason to, and I'll reassess. Otherwise you're all bluster and guilty of perpetrating the very behaviour you claim to be trying to prevent.

I am not here to make you do anything, but if you desire a reason I shall give you one. Religion has thousands of years of moral philosophies that all could benefit from, some are in error and should be discounted, others are thoughtful and should be reflected on.

So? I can point to one moral philosophy, the golden rule, and highlight the fact that it has no real religious origin. Indeed, if anything, it's more of a humanist philosophy. But I'm not sure why you think an entity like 'religion' having a few good points means it is thus immune to criticism, critique and ridicule. Care to explain?

I've been an atheist since day 1. I've never had a concept of a god, whatever that is.

Then how can you hope to understand what faith is? How can you hope to gently nudge people out of their faith in what they would otherwise refuse by force and insults?

1. Cite where I've used 'force' and 'insult'. Also tell me what you mean by 'force'. Who here is using force in their arguments?
2. Cite where I've said I even want to nudge people out of thief faith.
3. Why are you conflating religion and faith?

I don't care if people are religious or not until they try and use their religion to justify influencing me or the society/structures/agents that live around and over me. Then we've got a problem.

Indeed, if people just keep their religion to themselves, there'd be no issues.

It seems I like your main gripe is with people who criticise religion. Why is this? Why is people giving their opinions such a negative thing?

I recommend this article, it's interesting: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree...ellectuals

[The Grand Nudger]

Humans will do evil regardless of religion.

True, but to pose a now (in)famous challenge. Can you think of some moral good that only the religious may commit/accomplish? Can you think of some moral evil that only the religious may commit/accomplish?

Which one of those two questions did you answer in your mind immediately, and which one are you still searching for an example of?

[Celestine]

Uh, yes it fucking does: just currently there's some controversy over textbooks in Texas that contain known falsehoods made to lionize christianity, and you can just go ahead and google the "Wedge document" to see the lengths christian fundies will go to to disrupt science class in order to spread their dogma. Yet again, you're just wrong, which makes me wonder if you bothered to actually do any research yourself.

Without getting too far into details, tell that to my fiancee. She's a member of the forum, you literally can. But then, hearing what she has to say, what a number of other people on this board have to say, might upset your little apple cart, eh?

Once again, I've just got lofty, sweeping generalizations from you, and actual lived evidence of the contrary from other people. Wonder what I should believe?

Wow, I've never seen a person give a No True Every Possible Religion fallacy before. Good job.

You do know that many religions, christianity and islam specifically, literally order its followers to murder people, right?

Thank you for dismissing the personal journeys of people you've never met, out of hand, simply because they disagree with your presuppositions. If you're not a fundamentalist theist, you'd make a great one.

Oh, by the way, where's your condemnation of the religious? It's seems really weird to me, the way you'll bitch out atheists for saying "you're wrong" to theists, but you'll bend over backwards to preserve the theists from being grouped in with the people who say we atheists deserve to be killed, tortured forever, etc. Not a very consistent stance you've got here.

Ha! A known falsehood! Yes religion should be kept out of public schools, that I can agree with you, but your government does a much better job at indoctrination than religion ever could hope to do! After all the government makes those textbooks and puts their own falsehoods that they present as truths in them. If only you knew how much of the things in your history books were false and not more than mere propaganda!

In the Old Testament one of the ten commandments is thou shalt not kill, I don't ever remember reading anywhere Jesus telling to kill the unbelievers, and in Islam it only permits it when the people are attacking and killing Muslims or when another person unjustly kills another. At least from what I've read of the Quran so far.

Perhaps if you wouldn't ill treat them so much they wouldn't say you need to be killed? I think you fail to understand how much some atheists insult religion and the followers of religion. Granted I am not condemning religion, I have no reason to. I know what ails the world and it is not religion, I am seeking to guide you on the right path for you to find out the true source of suffering. I could tell you, I could give you all the evidence in the world, I've tried it many times before. Like religious people many atheists have faith, faith in their dominions, and no matter how much evidence I presented to them they would not believe. They... all of them... rejected the evidence like creationists reject evolution, the atheists I debated with held on to their faith.

I know now that I can not simply tell people, for they would never believe me. It tore me asunder to know that atheists whom I long believed were intellectual rational beings were just like the followers of religion whom I had been 'fighting' against for so long. Now I only have one mission in life, to promote peace and equality among the many clans of humanity, and to end the corruption that is rife in the dominions. To do that I need to learn how to change you, how to make you look at the REAL problem.

[The Grand Nudger]

There is also a call to genocide in the OT. Is that not killing? You know the folks that swung the sword were actually punished because they didn't -complete- said genocide thoroughly enough for OT god, right? Lesson being, when god tells you to off a motherfucker you do it once, and altogether. No half assed killing in the name of the lord - or your neck is the next one the axe will fall upon.
(murder, btw, is the distinction that most make there, thou shalt not murder...OT god is awash in the blood of those that have been killed, and gloriously so, clearly it doesn't take issue with -killing-)

[FatAndFaithless]

Ha! A known falsehood! Yes religion should be kept out of public schools, that I can agree with you, but your government does a much better job at indoctrination than religion ever could hope to do! After all the government makes those textbooks and puts their own falsehoods that they present as truths in them. If only you knew how much of the things in your history books were false and not more than mere propaganda!

For some reason I read that in his voice...


No but for reals, you're completely fucking off base.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

To do that I need to learn how to change you, how to make you look at the REAL problem.

Oh I think we're looking at it, Celestine.

Consider this, you're looking at it wrong. You've already insinuated that we are using force (undefined) and that we're trying to change people's faith and make them deconvert.

Yet can you point to a single example in this thread where someone has said/done that?

I think you might be wearing these in your view of religion:

[JesusHChrist]

Celestine, you seem to think the Quran is A-OK and doesn't have anything bad in it. Odd, since you are obviously on a computer with an internet connection and a few minutes of googling would show just how far off-base you are.

For example:

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or
subjective as anything else in the Quran.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/...olence.htm

Notice the bit about chopping off heads. Who does that remind you of? Hint: ISIS.

Wonder where they got that crazy idea?
Hint: The Quran

Now from the good book itself:

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

And it goes on and on from there. And on and on and on and on...

And that's just the Quran. The Hadith has vast quantities of the same or worse.

Now that kind of prose is the very definition of "militant". Where is the atheist manual calling for the cutting off of heads of believers?
Hint: it doesn't exist