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RE: The Proof!
September 30, 2014 at 2:27 pm
(September 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm)rtfguy Wrote: There is nothing any Christian can say to any atheist to make them believe in God... NOTHING!!! But, are you a chicken atheist or a true atheist? If you are a true atheist, do you really want to know if God exists? If so, ask Him! In all honesty, just say something like "Jesus, I really don't believe in you. I don't believe you exist but, if you do... prove it to me! Because I REALLY DO WANT TO KNOW!"
If I really had any concern at all about the existence of a god willing and able to torture me for eternity if I didn't acknowledge his existence, don't you think ignoring him would be rather brave? Foolhardy, but brave.
The thing is I'm not worried or brave, because I'm pretty darn sure that the Christian god doesn't exist simply because of all the contradictions and other problems with the Biblical account of him. I'm not quite as sure, but still convinced that there is no god of any kind. So not looking for god isn't particularly brave on my part.
But if you like I'll ask right now. "Um? Hello out there. If you exist God, please send me a sign because it sure would be nice to know." ---Nada. Happy?
Thought not. I'm not going to make you happy by trying harder. I did that once without success. I'm lucky I didn't fool myself. The thing is humans are pretty good at fooling themselves, so your method strikes me a trip to delusion land. People have used it to convince themselves of all sorts of things including ESP, the efficacy of tarot cards, seances.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: The Proof!
September 30, 2014 at 2:32 pm
(September 30, 2014 at 2:02 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: I have to say I think the proof for God is the world aeound us, creation.
Calling it creation does not make it so. You are begging the question.
The existence of the universe is only proof that the universe exists.
If you claim that it is the result of a god, then you have prove it, not assert it.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: The Proof!
September 30, 2014 at 2:34 pm
(September 30, 2014 at 2:02 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: I have to say I think the proof for God is the world aeound us, creation.
It is a pretty stupendous world in some ways ain't it? Pretty horrible in others---dog eat dog; not to mention lion eat lamb; spider eat fly; and bacteria and viruses eat people, dogs, lambs, spiders, and flies. There's not a second that goes by that some living thing isn't in agony. Sounds just like the OT god's cup of tea. But stupendous and awful as the world is, a creator god would have to be even more so, thus adding even greater complication. So no, I don't think the world proves god, particularly not a beneficent one.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god. If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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RE: The Proof!
September 30, 2014 at 2:35 pm
Op should entertain us more
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RE: The Proof!
September 30, 2014 at 2:41 pm
(September 30, 2014 at 2:35 pm)DramaQueen Wrote: Op should entertain us more
Nah, drive by prosletysing.
Guarantee he won't be back.
Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:
"You did WHAT? With WHO? WHERE???"
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RE: The Proof!
September 30, 2014 at 2:48 pm
OP is a one-hit wonder; spreading Good Christian Cheer throughout the interwebs.
Doing God's work he is!
Carry on Good Christian! Carry on.
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RE: The Proof!
September 30, 2014 at 2:50 pm
These kind of arguments reminds me of how Freeza feels here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMBbWE1wCKI
![[Image: grumpy-cat-and-jesus-meme-died-for-sins.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-_GaCN-f8ZFo%2FUNfmimTyf4I%2FAAAAAAAANmk%2FoakT_wL319U%2Fs1600%2Fgrumpy-cat-and-jesus-meme-died-for-sins.jpg)
I would be a televangelist....but I have too much of a soul.
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RE: The Proof!
October 1, 2014 at 9:32 am
(September 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm)rtfguy Wrote: There is nothing any Christian can say to any atheist to make them believe in God... NOTHING!!! But, are you a chicken atheist or a true atheist? If you are a true atheist, do you really want to know if God exists? If so, ask Him! In all honesty, just say something like "Jesus, I really don't believe in you. I don't believe you exist but, if you do... prove it to me! Because I REALLY DO WANT TO KNOW!"
I did. For two years. It didn't work, which is why I eventually became comfortable in my disbelief.
As it turns out, really wanting something to be true can't make it true.
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RE: The Proof!
October 1, 2014 at 9:41 am
(September 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm)rtfguy Wrote: There is nothing any Christian can say to any atheist to make them believe in God... NOTHING!!!
False.
(September 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm)rtfguy Wrote: But, are you a chicken atheist or a true atheist?
Silly, irrelevant comment. A 'true' atheist is someone who lacks a belief in a god or gods (however defined).
(September 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm)rtfguy Wrote: If you are a true atheist, do you really want to know if God exists?
I don't care, and I presume most other forum members don't either. God's dont figure high on my list of thoughts.
(September 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm)rtfguy Wrote: If so, ask Him! In all honesty, just say something like "Jesus, I really don't believe in you. I don't believe you exist but, if you do... prove it to me! Because I REALLY DO WANT TO KNOW!"
Presumption of existence =/= actual existence.
Try again, and this time say something that isn't deceptive or disingenuous.
Again, I don't care whether [insert god] exists or not. I don't think about it until someone like you tells me I should, because apparently it's so important but for the life of me I can't see why.
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RE: The Proof!
October 1, 2014 at 9:44 am
(September 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm)rtfguy Wrote: There is nothing any Christian can say to any atheist to make them believe in God... NOTHING!!! Sounds like a problem for the Christian.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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