Conclusive proof of God

[Aoi Magi]

Believers are skeptic, towards all other religions except their own. Only those who are willfully ignorant cannot be swayed.

[satsujin]

Believers are skeptic, towards all other religions except their own. Only those who are willfully ignorant cannot be swayed.

Its hard to accept other beliefs only when they contradict with your own. Muslims believe part of the Bible and vice-versa.

[Aoi Magi]

Believers are skeptic, towards all other religions except their own. Only those who are willfully ignorant cannot be swayed.

Its hard to accept other beliefs only when they contradict with your own. Muslims believe part of the Bible and vice-versa.

Nothing happens overnight, and beliefs wont change right away either. Everyone who isn't being willfully ignorant, do change their beliefs over time. Most muslims don't practice the violence prescribed in their scriptures, same goes for other religions. All have adapted to the changes in society, and if a real god comes to earth and proves himself, people will change their beliefs easily.

A little beating, or free food has already converted entire countries to a specific religion. If a supernatural being appears who can create and destroy planets at whim, gives away free food and free energy, then the existing believers would be the first in line to convert.

[satsujin]

A little beating, or free food has already converted entire countries to a specific religion. If a supernatural being appears who can create and destroy planets at whim, gives away free food and free energy, then the existing believers would be the first in line to convert.

Well, thanks Aoi. That's the first scenario put forth since I started this thread. But creation/destruction of planets would require major scientific testing. And I suppose if some being appeared on Earth and told everyone if you pray to me for food/energy you will get it, that would be a big step in converting many. But also likely is the more fundamentalist parts of different religions would claim this is an evil spirit offering gifts for your soul.

[Aoi Magi]

Well, thanks Aoi. That's the first scenario put forth since I started this thread. But creation/destruction of planets would require major scientific testing. And I suppose if some being appeared on Earth and told everyone if you pray to me for food/energy you will get it, that would be a big step in converting many. But also likely is the more fundamentalist parts of different religions would claim this is an evil spirit offering gifts for your soul.

That argument has had little to no effect on people when they are hungry or suffering. Missionaries sent to foreign lands often faced that, but whenever they offered free food, medicine e.t.c, people had no trouble converting. After all, you cannot worry about good and evil on an empty stomach or a broken back.


Anyway, back in reality, no such proof has yet arrived so not much point in fantasizing about what might happen, unless you plan on petitioning to god on how to prove himself.

[satsujin]

Well, thanks Aoi. That's the first scenario put forth since I started this thread. But creation/destruction of planets would require major scientific testing. And I suppose if some being appeared on Earth and told everyone if you pray to me for food/energy you will get it, that would be a big step in converting many. But also likely is the more fundamentalist parts of different religions would claim this is an evil spirit offering gifts for your soul.

That argument has had little to no effect on people when they are hungry or suffering. Missionaries sent to foreign lands often faced that, but whenever they offered free food, medicine e.t.c, people had no trouble converting. After all, you cannot worry about good and evil on an empty stomach or a broken back.


Anyway, back in reality, no such proof has yet arrived so not much point in fantasizing about what might happen, unless you plan on petitioning to god on how to prove himself.

Well, I suppose I must also be honest and say I dont think God would ever want to prove himself by arriving here on Earth. I dont believe God requires our belief and also believe God is an infinite being trying to experience a limited existence through us. He doesnt want anything and doesnt interfere in anything --- just wants to experience all realms of existence.

I just wanted some opposing viewpoints on what would be god proof for others and what i got has been pretty vague. Still the chat has been interesting. I'm signing off now.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have no idea what a god is.

[Tonus]

5. Would any "miracle" that seemed supernatural be accepted as such or required to to be tested until it fit natural laws when it would no longer be supernatural? Maybe God would be seen as an expert illusionist not explaining his tricks?

Think about the many miracles described, for example, in the Bible. Consider how we might go about testing or verifying these, and ask yourself how difficult it might be:

- Turns water into wine.
- Walks on the surface of a lake.
- Gives sight to the blind, including one man who was born blind.
- Gives a paralyzed man full use of his limbs in an instant.
- Resurrects people who had been dead for at least two or more days.
- Heals the gravely ill in an instant.
- Starting with a few loaves of bread and a few fish, feeds thousands of people, and then recovers far more leftovers than the food he began with.
- Resurrects himself after being killed.
- Floats off into the sky and disappears.

Some of these can be easily subject to doubt, but all could be performed under controlled conditions, and some can be checked in any circumstance. So there are plenty of ways that we can substantiate that something supernatural --or at least very much out of the ordinary-- has happened. Perhaps this god being could create a human being out of the dust of the ground (or a human bone) and bring him/her to life. Perhaps he could, with a spoken command, cause the Sun to stop in the sky and remain in place for a day. All of these could substantiate the supernatural power of the Biblical god.

Putting his face on a piece of toast, or a moldy appliance, or making nature almost conform to mathematical ratios... those aren't the acts of a powerful cosmic being. They're the rationalizations of people who are grasping for clues in the wake of god's apparent unwillingness or inability to show himself.

[TaraJo]

If god exists and he is omni-knowledgable, he already knows what would convince me of his existance. If he's omnipotent, he's easily able to meet that criteria. The fact that god has chosen not to reveal himself to me leads me to believe that either god doesn't exist or that he doesn't want me to believe.

But the really nasty stuff about god comes up when you consider a god who is able to reveal himself to me, doesn't and still plans to punish me for disbelief.

[*Deidre*]

Maybe she knows there isn't one so she doesn't bother. This should be a proof that works for everyone, not just you. I suppose it could manifest as different proofs that matched each person's criteria, but this would cause difference on opinion on what the actual proof was.

If she can't proof to me she exist, then there is no way she is God. You can prove to me that you exist. You can prove to the world that you exist. Are you saying God is incapable of doing what you can do, a mere mortal?

Well said.
I've often wondered too why would an all powerful, all knowing God choose only a handful of people thousands of years ago to "show" itself? And that's it. And all generations thereafter are to just accept or believe a book of stories from those people, or they risk "perishing?

I suppose the rebuttal could be that faith doesn't require reason. At least that is a rebuttal I heard when I left Christianity.