Conclusive proof of God

[satsujin]

If you claim you simply do not know, then I agree this validates your argument since you are waiting for proof. This is agnosticism however not atheism. I used to be agnostic leaning towards atheism until I had my spiritual experience. However, many atheists on boards I have read claim to believe there is no God, not that they dont know. In fact, I have read posts by some who claim they know there is no god since science explains all and this does away with the need for God.

Also, the topic now seems to be requiring proof for the existence of God. I have my own and dont pretend that it will convince others. But that is not what my question was: It was CAN there be proof of God's existence not WHAT is proof of God's existence. I guess on an atheist board the possibility of God existing cant be entertained to answer other questions. I also have an aside: SHOULD God prove his existence but that's a whole other ballgame.

[*Deidre*]

If you claim you simply do not know, then I agree this validates your argument since you are waiting for proof. This is agnosticism however not atheism. I used to be agnostic leaning towards atheism until I had my spiritual experience. However, many atheists on boards I have read claim to believe there is no God, not that they dont know. In fact, I have read posts by some who claim they know there is no god since science explains all and this does away with the need for God.

Also, the topic now seems to be requiring proof for the existence of God. I have my own and dont pretend that it will convince others. But that is not what my question was: It was CAN there be proof of God's existence not WHAT is proof of God's existence. I guess on an atheist board the possibility of God existing cant be entertained to answer other questions. I also have an aside: SHOULD God prove his existence but that's a whole other ballgame.

Agnosticism is merely not knowing one way or the other if a god exists. Atheism is a position of belief. (lack thereof)

At the end of the day, why should anyone CARE if a god exists? Why do theists care if atheists buy into what they do?

[LastPoet]

If you claim you simply do not know, then I agree this validates your argument since you are waiting for proof. This is agnosticism however not atheism. I used to be agnostic leaning towards atheism until I had my spiritual experience. However, many atheists on boards I have read claim to believe there is no God, not that they dont know. In fact, I have read posts by some who claim they know there is no god since science explains all and this does away with the need for God.

Also, the topic now seems to be requiring proof for the existence of God. I have my own and dont pretend that it will convince others. But that is not what my question was: It was CAN there be proof of God's existence not WHAT is proof of God's existence. I guess on an atheist board the possibility of God existing cant be entertained to answer other questions.

What? Either you believe something or you do not. If you don't know, that equates to not believing.

Query: Do you believe in god(s)? Yes, you are a theist, No, you are an atheist. It is that simple.

Trying to change the meanining of words only help to reassure yourself, it does nothing to reality. I don't know for sure that a god exists, but I know for sure that all gods concocted by humanity do not exist. Those gods that they are foolish enough to ascribe physical properties or actions have been disproven many times. If they claim to believe by faith, i.e. believing without reason, it's ok as long as they admit it.

[satsujin]

No, last poet there is a middle stance. You can be uncertain WHAT to believe. maybe yes, maybe no.

[LastPoet]

No, last poet there is a middle stance. You can be uncertain WHAT to believe.

No there isn't, regarding belief. You can be uncertain regarding knowledge, and this is where you fail by comparing belief with knowledge. I don't know there isn't a god, but I dont believe in one, not until some evidence is produced.

I'm not sure about what caused our universe to begin, that doesn't equate to fill that empty space of doubts with a god pulled out of my ass or worse, by using a popular god to justify my belief, just because alot of other people believe it too.

[Lemonvariable72]

What I want to ask is believe in anything that can't proof exists? Before you say love, yes you can demonstrate love is real.

Did you mean why believe in anything that we can't prove exists? Personal experience is one reason for this and something I can attest to but I realize it is subjective and not demonstrable to someone else. But from what I've read even diehard skeptics have changed their religous views based on personal expereince.

That is not why I'm asking this however. I simply want to show that even if we could all agree on a universal definition of God, there is no way an infinite being could manifest finitely in a finite world and prove its infinite nature. Since the proof would have to be of finite nature, science would require it to be testable and repeatable. Even if this supernatural feat was testable would science eventually accept as supernatural or simply refuse to accept it until it could be proved naturally? Which would be never. I doubt today's skeptic's would accept any claim from any being if science didn't accept it too.

So that would mean that by what your claiming christianity would be patently false since it it relies on a infinite god making himself finite at the very core.

[Surgenator]

If you claim you simply do not know, then I agree this validates your argument since you are waiting for proof. This is agnosticism however not atheism.

Not this agnosticism vs atheism BS. If you don't believe there is a God, you are an atheist. If you don't know if there is a God, you are agnostic. Belief and knowledge are not the samething. You can be an agnostic atheist i.e. you don't know whether God exist but you don't believe she does. You can be a gnostic atheist i.e. you know God doesn't exist and you believe she doesn't exist.

I used to be agnostic leaning towards atheism until I had my spiritual experience.

I used to believe, and then I used logic and reason on my beliefs.

Also, the topic now seems to be requiring proof for the existence of God. I have my own and dont pretend that it will convince others. But that is not what my question was: It was CAN there be proof of God's existence not WHAT is proof of God's existence.

I believe that there can be proof of God's existence. What that proof would be, I don't know. An arm growing back almost instantaneously would be a good start.

I also have an aside: SHOULD God prove his existence but that's a whole other ballgame.

Didn't God create us to worship her? It would be stupid on her part to not prove to us that she exist.

[satsujin]

I don't know there isn't a god, but I dont believe in one, not until some evidence is produced.
To me, this sentence seems to be saying you believe there is no god since there is no evidence. You don't know it but you believe this based on no knowledge of proof of one. And I say when you take a stance on something without actual knowledge, it is faith. I do not use it in its religious sense but only defined as believing something without knowledge.

But somehow our definition of Belief differs.

[Aoi Magi]

No, last poet there is a middle stance. You can be uncertain WHAT to believe. maybe yes, maybe no.

No, I already tried to explain this to you before. Agnosticism is being "unsure", and it can apply to both theists and atheists depending on which side they are leaning towards. An atheist does not believe in the claim of existence of God, just as you didn't believe in my pet shoe creating dinosaurs (which by the way does exist and has proven itself to me, but I cannot prove it to anyone else, similar to your "spiritual experience").

From a scientific standpoint, an idea will gain a "may or may not be" status when it is proven to be plausible. The idea of God lacks enough data to be even plausible at the moment, rather study of nature pretty much eliminates the logical need of any god. Thus so far anyone saying they don't believe in god are quite valid and actually being neutral.

If these people claimed that they won't believe in god even after the existence of such a being is proven, then they would be holding a position of rejecting god or against god.



As for your questions,
Can god be proven? Yes and god would know how
Should he bother to prove himself? If he wants us to believe in him, then yes, he needs to prove his existence first.

[LastPoet]

Those are not mutually exclusive, just grab a dictionary. (a)gnosticism refers to being absolutely sure or not sure about something.(a)theism refers to believing/not believing god (or gods) in special.People still are fooled to think that in the standard around, people think agnostic is a middle ground, when it is not, just the refuge of idiotic cowards that refuse to have an opinion. I consider that all of us should be honest enough to admit we are agnostic, regarding most stuff. In any practical terms, it's futile to even discuss it, yet, there are those that in light of their own cowardice try to chance the meaning of words, just because words don't cover it. Grow some balls, either you believe in gods or you do not, there is no middle ground here.