Eternal punishment is pointless.

[LastPoet]

God is a crappy, abusive parent.

Is he? [yoda] That is why you fail [/yoda]

[Lek]

Have you ever heard or even read the Epic of Gilgamesh? It predates the oldest versions of the Torah.

The Lilith legend is ancient. It predates the Torah. The first literary reference to Lilith is found in the Sumerian tale entitled Gilgamesh and the Huluppu Tree (circa 2000 BCE), which is part of the Epic of Gilgamesh. In the tale Lilith is one of three creatures who haunt a great Huluppu tree situated in a holy garden of the gods. At the foot of the tree is a snake. The poem is remarkable in that has many similarities with the Biblical tale of Eden. First, the tree and Lilith are located in Inanna's "holy garden", evoking the image of the Garden of Eden. Secondly, the tree itself invokes an image of the Tree of Knowledge, in which Lilith is said to dwell in some later myths. Lilith is also associated with a snake that recalls the serpent that tempted Eve. The poem also associates her with a bird who flees through flight, this is also an act and capability which Lilith is said to have done.

And by the way, a large part of said epic talks about the great flood, with Gilgamesh building a boat.

Although, overall the stories are totally different, portions such as the tree and the serpent corroborate one another as far as what knowledge had been passed down through generations concerning the earliest times. Often myths have a basis in reality. There are also many other "great flood" stories from around the world, which would lend credence to the belief in a worldwide flood.

[Esquilax]

Although, overall the stories are totally different, portions such as the tree and the serpent corroborate one another as far as what knowledge had been passed down through generations concerning the earliest times.

But lemme guess, they all originate with your god, right?

Often myths have a basis in reality. There are also many other "great flood" stories from around the world, which would lend credence to the belief in a worldwide flood.

Except that the actual physical evidence, the geologic column and numerous other civilizations who apparently continued on without ever noticing that they had been destroyed in a flood, contradict the idea of a worldwide flood. Physical evidence doesn't lie, so what we're left with is a bunch of accounts of a "worldwide" flood that could not have happened.

A simpler explanation is that there have been a lot of floods in the world, and the idea that they're worldwide monster floods is just exaggeration or metaphor. When your entire world is basically a few miles around your village or town, then a lot of relatively small events can be worldwide.

[abaris]

Although, overall the stories are totally different, portions such as the tree and the serpent corroborate one another as far as what knowledge had been passed down through generations concerning the earliest times. Often myths have a basis in reality. There are also many other "great flood" stories from around the world, which would lend credence to the belief in a worldwide flood.

Couldn't possibly be that the Israelites took their inspirations from much older myths? Like, say Yahweh originally being an Ugarit deity. There he was known as one of the 12 children of the highest deity El.

[Lek]

Although, overall the stories are totally different, portions such as the tree and the serpent corroborate one another as far as what knowledge had been passed down through generations concerning the earliest times. Often myths have a basis in reality. There are also many other "great flood" stories from around the world, which would lend credence to the belief in a worldwide flood.

Couldn't possibly be that the Israelites took their inspirations from much older myths? Like, say Yahweh originally being an Ugarit deity.

Maybe. Maybe not. I definitely wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

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Except that the actual physical evidence, the geologic column and numerous other civilizations who apparently continued on without ever noticing that they had been destroyed in a flood, contradict the idea of a worldwide flood. Physical evidence doesn't lie, so what we're left with is a bunch of accounts of a "worldwide" flood that could not have happened.

A simpler explanation is that there have been a lot of floods in the world, and the idea that they're worldwide monster floods is just exaggeration or metaphor. When your entire world is basically a few miles around your village or town, then a lot of relatively small events can be worldwide.

You just explain those things away with a wave of the hand, but you hold firmly to the possibility that the Hebrews copied a Sumerian myth.

[Thackerie]

The whole reasoning of this thread is wrong.
Hell was made for the devil and his angels.
There is no purgatory and the Hitlers, Stalins ,Maos are not going to Heaven,
so the only option left is to be sent where the devil is going.
There are people who would not be fit for heaven.
What else would you do with them?

Ohh! Ohh! I know!

Let 'em die at the end of their earthly lives and remain dead ... just like everyone ever born, including, eventually, you and me.

[Esquilax]

You just explain those things away with a wave of the hand, but you hold firmly to the possibility that the Hebrews copied a Sumerian myth.

Sorry bud, this is only my second post in this thread. All the content you had to work with when you wrote this accusation was represented in my post above; I never said anything about Sumerian myths, so you can't exactly be bringing this up as a double standard against me. You don't know my position on it.

Not that "you just explain those things away," is much of a rebuttal, more a statement of facts. Yes, I do explain them away, because there are more logical explanations for them.

Also? What I did say, did not even entertain the possibility of mythological copying. My point was that the worldwide flood idea was probably an exaggeration, not plagiarism, and that the actual physical evidence simply dos not even allow for the possibility of a real worldwide flood.

So to recap: you didn't address what I actually said, accused me of something I never even spoke about, and didn't so much as rebut that, but rather state what I was actually doing, as though it's inherently wrong.

Maybe try responding to me, the next time you respond to me?

[abaris]

You just explain those things away with a wave of the hand, but you hold firmly to the possibility that the Hebrews copied a Sumerian myth.

In fact I am the one to explain these things away, based on my knowledge of history and my interest in mythology.

Here's one of the easier sources pointing out the similarities between the older Sumerian myths and the later Torah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panbabylonism

[Chad32]

Did anyone ever explain how Adam and eve were supposed to know what death even was? It doesn't mention Yahweh explaining it to them. Just oddly goes from him telling Adam not to do it, to Eve being created, to her talking to the snake and somehow knowing what Yahweh told Adam.

Or why they were naked, when it was apparently already wrong for them to be? They ate the fruit, realized they were naked, and knew it was wrong. So why were they naked in the first place?

[Lek]

In fact I am the one to explain these things away, based on my knowledge of history and my interest in mythology.

Here's one of the easier sources pointing out the similarities between the older Sumerian myths and the later Torah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panbabylonism

Since you know so much about panbabylonism, you know that it was never widely accepted, confined mainly to Germany for a short period during the early 1900s.

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You just explain those things away with a wave of the hand, but you hold firmly to the possibility that the Hebrews copied a Sumerian myth.

Sorry bud, this is only my second post in this thread. All the content you had to work with when you wrote this accusation was represented in my post above; I never said anything about Sumerian myths, so you can't exactly be bringing this up as a double standard against me. You don't know my position on it.

Not that "you just explain those things away," is much of a rebuttal, more a statement of facts. Yes, I do explain them away, because there are more logical explanations for them.

Also? What I did say, did not even entertain the possibility of mythological copying. My point was that the worldwide flood idea was probably an exaggeration, not plagiarism, and that the actual physical evidence simply dos not even allow for the possibility of a real worldwide flood.

So to recap: you didn't address what I actually said, accused me of something I never even spoke about, and didn't so much as rebut that, but rather state what I was actually doing, as though it's inherently wrong.

Maybe try responding to me, the next time you respond to me?

Sorry about that. And, by the way, I do agree that the floods in these stories could have been local. They could have been referring to "their" world and using hyperbole.