I Really Hate The Concept Of Free Will

[Neo-Scholastic]

I am very new here so I forgive me for asking but what denomination of Christian are you? How does what you just quoted apply to your idea of hell and do you mind using your own words to explain?

I am a student of Emanuel Swedenborg, an 18th century scientist and mystic. To answer your question, this life places us in a state of equilibrium in which you can choose to move closer to the Lord's goodness and truth or away from Him. Upon death you continue in the direction of your habits.

In response to another, saying you can be good without God is like saying you can breath without lungs.

[Chad32]

You can breathe without lungs. You'd just require gills, or absorbing oxygen through the skin.

This kind of discussion has gone on just like the free will argument and other things. Morality doesn't come from god. It comes from our evolutionary need to get along as a group. Since the rules required for different groups to get along differs between groups, morality is subjective. Even the idea of not killing each other, which is unanimous among groups, tends to not extend outside of the group, and sometimes includes people within the group that break other rules. That's why you have so much killing in the old testament, despite a short, simple rule saying thou shalt not kill.

We can start making lists of professed atheists, and people of other faiths, doing great things, while making a separate list of followers of Yahweh who did horrible things. Bill Gates gives part of his fortune to charity while priests molest little boys. It should be obvious that people commit virtuous and viscous deeds, regardless of their beliefs.

[Smaug]

In response to another, saying you can be good without God is like saying you can breath without lungs.

Clearly not a proper analogy as long as not all living organisms use lungs to breathe.

By the way, there are many believers, who call atheists and agnostics "arrogant". But isn't it really arrogant to make some ignorant, completely baseless statements from authority (of ancient texts or 'those, who know the Truth') and then accuse others (and not just atheists but 'heretics' too) of supposedly doing the very same thing?

[The Valkyrie]

I am very new here so I forgive me for asking but what denomination of Christian are you? How does what you just quoted apply to your idea of hell and do you mind using your own words to explain?

I am a student of Emanuel Swedenborg, an 18th century scientist and mystic. To answer your question, this life places us in a state of equilibrium in which you can choose to move closer to the Lord's goodness and truth or away from Him. Upon death you continue in the direction of your habits.

In response to another, saying you can be good without God is like saying you can breath without lungs.

And yet many people are.

How do you explain that?

[Nope]

I am very new here so I forgive me for asking but what denomination of Christian are you? How does what you just quoted apply to your idea of hell and do you mind using your own words to explain?

I am a student of Emanuel Swedenborg, an 18th century scientist and mystic. To answer your question, this life places us in a state of equilibrium in which you can choose to move closer to the Lord's goodness and truth or away from Him. Upon death you continue in the direction of your habits.

In response to another, saying you can be good without God is like saying you can breath without lungs.

I have never heard of Swedenborg. It sounds as if some of your beliefs differ from traditional Christianity.

A lot depends on how someone defines the word, good. To me, good means that in general, I do as little harm to others and myself as I can and try to make life a little better for those around me. I try to help if I see someone in need and I try very hard to be honest. The reason I use the phrase, I try is that like everyone alive, I could probably do better but for the most part, I am a good person.

Because you seem to follow a denomination of Christianity that is new to me, I can't guess how you define good.

I attended an Independent Baptist Church in Iowa whose pastor taught that goodness didn't matter. All that mattered was whether the person was saved. A good person, he said, could go to hell if they weren't a Christian. It was a depressing point of view that seemed to separate humanity into groups of us and them.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Gee wiz, if you'all want to argue with the metaphor with talk of gills and such then go right ahead. The point is that being good requires the capacity to do so, despite whether you recognize the source of that capacity or not. The virtuous atheist can behave as well as anyone else because all humans have a providential conscience. If people do not look to the Good itself to guide their choices then they look to themselves or others for guidance. That looking elsewhere tends to be self-serving even if it potentially aligns with what is actually good.

[Nope]

Gee wiz, if you'all want to argue with the metaphor with talk of gills and such then go right ahead. The point is that being good requires the capacity to do so, despite whether you recognize the source of that capacity or not. The virtuous atheist can behave as well as anyone else because all humans have a providential conscience. If people do not look to the Good itself to guide their choices then they look to themselves or others for guidance. That looking elsewhere tends to be self-serving even if it potentially aligns with what is actually good.

Is this like the Catholic belief in the 'natural laws"? I might get this wrong but I have read that Catholics believe that all people have a conscious that tells them what is right or wrong. An atheist who follows his/her conscious and does good would get to heaven because he/she is unknowingly following god. I apologize to any Roman Catholics who feel that I misrepresented their beliefs. I still don't understand why anyone holding such beliefs would want to convert anyone to their faith because it seems like it shouldn't matter what anyone else believed.

[The Valkyrie]

Gee wiz, if you'all want to argue with the metaphor with talk of gills and such then go right ahead. The point is that being good requires the capacity to do so, despite whether you recognize the source of that capacity or not. The virtuous atheist can behave as well as anyone else because all humans have a providential conscience. If people do not look to the Good itself to guide their choices then they look to themselves or others for guidance. That looking elsewhere tends to be self-serving even if it potentially aligns with what is actually good.

Yes, most humans do indeed have an in build morality. It comes from being a social species and evolving as such.

I will give you that many theists managed to be moral despite their holy books.

[Chad32]

Gee wiz, if you'all want to argue with the metaphor with talk of gills and such then go right ahead. The point is that being good requires the capacity to do so, despite whether you recognize the source of that capacity or not. The virtuous atheist can behave as well as anyone else because all humans have a providential conscience. If people do not look to the Good itself to guide their choices then they look to themselves or others for guidance. That looking elsewhere tends to be self-serving even if it potentially aligns with what is actually good.

First you have to get around to proving that Yahweh is real, that he is good, and is the source of goodness in the world, before you can assert that trying to do good without god is like trying to breathe without lungs. It's quite leap of assumptions.

[Losty]

I don't want to go to hell, and I'm an atheist. Am I going, or not?

Heaven and hell are states of being, not places. People seek out that in which they delight. What seems like hell to the blessed will appear heavenly to those who delight in things contrary to the Lord.

So...hell will be enjoyable for atheists?
I don't understand this at all.
I enjoy love, kindness, generosity...
I do not believe in god, I do not enjoy the idea of worshiping it if it does exist. Are you saying hell will be like this great place for me that just happens to be without god?