Rape in the Bible

[John V]

So what's your position on gay marriage, since you're obviously the tolerant who am I to judge guy?

That in the US, it should be decided by the voters at the state level, which is largely what's occurring.

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So he can convince a group of people to kill their neighbor for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week,

When did he convince them to do that?

You know that God put Israel in captivity in part for disobeying the Sabbath year laws, right?

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My husband's cousin is a Hasadic Jew( Yes, I know that sounds like the set up for a bad joke). His cousin's marriage was arranged. Both individuals were adult and had visited other countries. The bride and groom wanted their marriage arranged and seemed happy. An arranged marriage does not automatically mean rape as long as both people consent.

I agree, and was speaking in general. Surely you agree that there are arranged marriages in which the bride's consent is not considered? Do those result in rape?

[Nope]

My husband's cousin is a Hasadic Jew( Yes, I know that sounds like the set up for a bad joke). His cousin's marriage was arranged. Both individuals were adult and had visited other countries. The bride and groom wanted their marriage arranged and seemed happy. An arranged marriage does not automatically mean rape as long as both people consent.

I agree, and was speaking in general. Surely you agree that there are arranged marriages in which the bride's consent is not considered? Do those result in rape?

If someone has sex with another person without that person's consent than they have raped that person. Rape occurs in some marriage regardless of whether the union was arranged or not. I don't hold arranged marriages to a different standard then I do other types of marriage.

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[quote='abaris' pid='808591' dateline='1417550897']
So what's your position on gay marriage, since you're obviously the tolerant who am I to judge guy?

That in the US, it should be decided by the voters at the state level, which is largely what's occurring.

Not in NC where I live. The people of NC for a constitutional amendment to prevent same sex marriage. The case went to court and now we have same sex marriage in NC. That is happening in a lot of states.

State's rights was one of the excuses for slavery but that would be a topic for another thread.

[dyresand]

god doesn't care about rape here is some passages
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".

6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

Once again God approves of forcible rape.

8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

[John V]

If someone has sex with another person without that person's consent than they have raped that person. Rape occurs in some marriage regardless of whether the union was arranged or not. I don't hold arranged marriages to a different standard then I do other types of marriage.

Key words are "I don't hold." Your opinion is noted, and you have every right to it, but you can't objectively prove that your opinion is truth.

[Nope]

If someone has sex with another person without that person's consent than they have raped that person. Rape occurs in some marriage regardless of whether the union was arranged or not. I don't hold arranged marriages to a different standard then I do other types of marriage.

Key words are "I don't hold." Your opinion is noted, and you have every right to it, but you can't objectively prove that your opinion is truth.

I am confused as to what point you are making. What opinion of mine do you mean? Maybe you and I are using different definitions for the phrase, I don't hold? I was not using ' I don't hold' as a synonym for 'my opinion'. Are you saying that I should expect a different standard for consent in arranged and arranged marriages? What exactly do I have to prove is true? Are you talking about arranged marriages or marital rape? I am not trying to be facetious; I honestly don't know what you mean.

[John V]

I am confused as to what point you are making. What opinion of mine do you mean?

All of them. The point is that your positions regarding rape are your opinions. Other people have other opinions. No one can objectively prove that they're right.

Maybe you and I are using different definitions for the phrase, I don't hold? I was not using ' I don't hold' as a synonym for 'my opinion'.

If you think that what you hold is more than your opinion, demonstrate that.

Are you saying that I should expect a different standard for consent in arranged and arranged marriages?

No, I'm saying that you, and everyone else, can have their own opinions.

What exactly do I have to prove is true?

Anything that you assert as more than just opinion.

[Nope]

Question for you, alpha male. I know that some individuals do not believe in marital rape. They believe that marriage equals continual consent of the spouses for sex. (hopefully, that made sense) Do you believe that someone can be raped by their spouse?

[John V]

Question for you, alpha male. I know that some individuals do not believe in marital rape. They believe that marriage equals continual consent of the spouses for sex. (hopefully, that made sense) Do you believe that someone can be raped by their spouse?

Yes, forcible sex on a spouse is IMO rape. Historically, that is a relatively recent position. However, I do note differences between married and unmarried people. For example, IMO a woman can't give consent if she's drunk. So, for unmarried people, sex with a drunk woman is rape. However, I think that standard should be different for married people. IMO, if you're married, consent should be presumed unless specifically retracted.

What do you think? Should a married man refrain from sex if his wife is drunk, even if she's asking for sex? Technically, she can't consent.

[Nope]

Question for you, alpha male. I know that some individuals do not believe in marital rape. They believe that marriage equals continual consent of the spouses for sex. (hopefully, that made sense) Do you believe that someone can be raped by their spouse?

Yes, forcible sex on a spouse is IMO rape. Historically, that is a relatively recent position. However, I do note differences between married and unmarried people. For example, IMO a woman can't give consent if she's drunk. So, for unmarried people, sex with a drunk woman is rape. However, I think that standard should be different for married people. IMO, if you're married, consent should be presumed unless specifically retracted.

What do you think? Should a married man refrain from sex if his wife is drunk, even if she's asking for sex? Technically, she can't consent.

There are several issues in your post that you tried to combine into one point. At what point a person becomes too drunk to be able to give consent is a separate issue from whether there is such a thing as marital rape.

For the basis of our current laws, it doesn't matter that our ancestors didn't believe that marital rape existed. If we based our society around what people did in the past, we would still have slavery and torture.

We own our own bodies. Humans do not give up the right to their bodies because they married. If a man or woman has sex with someone without that person's consent that is rape. It doesn't matter if the attacker physically forced the person or had sex with them while they were unconscious. It is still rape.

I would not want my children to marry someone that doesn't know the difference between rape and consensual sex.

[John V]

Your opinions are noted.