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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 3:11 am
(This post was last modified: February 12, 2015 at 3:11 am by robvalue.)
We're so special! And especially me!
Bollocks. If you zoom your mind out from earth for one second it's obvious that we are not special. We're not even interesting or relevant.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 3:27 am
(This post was last modified: February 12, 2015 at 3:31 am by Thumpalumpacus.)
(February 11, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Lek Wrote: (February 11, 2015 at 7:50 pm)Irrational Wrote: In what way does this refute my case exactly?
You have created a one-dimensional image in your mind of what God should be if he's loving. You think that if he is a loving God he will never get angry, he will not be concerned with justice or punishment, and that he would not let us get ourselves into into any trouble. If he doesn't fit your image of what a loving God is, then you've decided that either he doesn't exist or doesn't care.
What is your conception of love, that inflicting cancer upon your beloved is a gesture of it? Would you create a disease designed to kill you brother's child shortly after birth, in order to demonstrate your love for him? Maybe you think it would be good for him to become a widower as you ensure that his wife is killed in a mudslide or volcanic eruption, and so arrange affairs to that end in order to show him your love?
Please, tell us what love means to you, that it could be expressed in such events.
Or are you saying that your god punishes in this life? That is clearly unsupported by the Bible, and long experience, where we see evil prosper as good men suffer.
No, this is you trying to skirt the problem of evil with the usual bullshit about how all evil is man's fault, as if your all-knowing god was surprised by the rebelliousness of his creations. I didn't buy it as a boy, and my bullshit-detector has only gotten more sensitive with the passing years, buddy. Take this conception of love and practice it on your own children, then come back to us with results ... after you're released from prison, of course.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 3:33 am
(February 11, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Lek Wrote: You have created a one-dimensional image in your mind of what God should be if he's loving. You think that if he is a loving God he will never get angry, he will not be concerned with justice or punishment, and that he would not let us get ourselves into into any trouble. If he doesn't fit your image of what a loving God is, then you've decided that either he doesn't exist or doesn't care. I'm glad you don't believe in your religion enough to actually treat people according to the biblical conception of justice.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 3:33 am
Time to hear about more arbitrary restrictions an omnipotent God has to work around.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 8:33 am
(This post was last modified: February 12, 2015 at 8:37 am by Spooky.)
(February 11, 2015 at 8:39 pm)Lek Wrote: (February 11, 2015 at 8:28 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Eternal punishment, hellfire or no, has nothing to do with justice. Your god doesn't even fit your bible's definition of love. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. NIV.
Usually when someone accuses your god of not being loving and just, someone will claim we want to go way to the other extreme and not want to be punished at all. It's a strawman argument.
Get away from the eternal torment stuff. I don't believe the bible teaches it. Anyway, the deist position that God doesn't care is based on their own idea of what God should be and not what he is. It's like "If he lets us suffer, then he doesn't care or he doesn't exist."
Lek, have you actually read the bible? 
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 12:35 pm
(This post was last modified: February 12, 2015 at 12:42 pm by Lek.)
(February 12, 2015 at 8:33 am)Spooky Wrote: (February 11, 2015 at 8:39 pm)Lek Wrote: Get away from the eternal torment stuff. I don't believe the bible teaches it. Anyway, the deist position that God doesn't care is based on their own idea of what God should be and not what he is. It's like "If he lets us suffer, then he doesn't care or he doesn't exist."
Lek, have you actually read the bible?
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Isn't hell, followed by annihilation, everlasting? For eternity one doesn't get to experience everlasting life with God.
(February 12, 2015 at 3:33 am)Nestor Wrote: [I'm glad you don't believe in your religion enough to actually treat people according to the biblical conception of justice.
I don't hand justice. God does that. I try to treat others the way Jesus instructed me to.
(February 12, 2015 at 3:27 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: No, this is you trying to skirt the problem of evil with the usual bullshit about how all evil is man's fault.
This is not skirting the problem. This is telling it like it is.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 3:06 pm
(February 12, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Lek Wrote: (February 12, 2015 at 3:27 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: No, this is you trying to skirt the problem of evil with the usual bullshit about how all evil is man's fault.
This is not skirting the problem. This is telling it like it is.
... he wrote, even as he avoided answering my question.
Answer my question: what is your conception of love, such that fatal diseases and natural disasters express it? Would you wish a disease upon your own child?
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 5:40 pm
(February 12, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Lek Wrote: Isn't hell, followed by annihilation, everlasting? For eternity one doesn't get to experience everlasting life with God. Not in the context in which that word is used, especially since it is juxtaposed with the promise of "everlasting life" for the righteous. Like most moderates, you start with the belief and then read in to the text a justification for that belief. It's called "confirmation bias". For anyone reading the passage who has never heard of Christianity, the natural conclusion is that Jesus is speaking of eternal torment for the damned.
Of course, if that isn't enough to convince you, the context of Matthew 25 with Jesus' other teachings support the idea of eternal torture rather than annihilation:
Quote:Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them [the damned] into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:47-48 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched
Luke 16:24 And he [the damned rich man] cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 12, 2015 at 8:17 pm
(This post was last modified: February 12, 2015 at 8:19 pm by Mudhammam.)
(February 12, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't hand justice. God does that. I try to treat others the way Jesus instructed me to. Unfortunately vague platitudes don't actually help us that much in real life situations, and Jesus never elaborated to cover the subtleties involved when ethical dilemmas demand our judgement.
"Love your enemies" sounds great. I doubt you'll be taking any trips to Syria anytime soon though.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 4:03 am
Love them. Then rip their eyes and teeth out.
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