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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:30 pm
(This post was last modified: December 7, 2014 at 4:32 pm by Heywood.)
(December 7, 2014 at 4:26 pm)robvalue Wrote: People can lie, people can be deluded. For something so fantastic, a bit of eye witness testimony is not good enough evidence.
If it was, you'd have to believe any insane claim made by any group of people who have matching stories.
Eye witness testimony was the best possible evidence at the time. They didn't have X ray or photography.
And I don't have to believe it. I don't believe it. I just can't say, "you have no evidence it happened" to a believer with a straight face.
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:33 pm
(This post was last modified: December 7, 2014 at 4:34 pm by robvalue.)
That's a shame, but it's still not good enough. Lowering standards of evidence to account for technology makes no sense. Either you have evidence beyond reasonable doubt, or you do not.
I can say there is not sufficient evidence, I'm not saying there is no evidence.
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:34 pm
Let's not forget the horse with two heads and two bodies, seen in 1495. Some say it was two horses standing next to each other, but they were probably witches anyway.
No, wait; that was The Black Adder.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:37 pm
(December 7, 2014 at 4:25 pm)Heywood Wrote: Except for the pesky Miracle of Calanda. That was verified by people at the time......you just don't accept their verification and want to see an amputee's limb restored for yourself....but this is an unreasonable expectation.
A mere claim from nearly 400 years ago, supposedly witnessed by.... who? Do we have names of these witnesses? And even so, how can we know the witnesses weren't mistaken, lying or duped? Why is there only ONE instance of a limb supposedly regenerating? Interesting that this has never occurred in modern times where scientists and medical professionals could attest to it.
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:38 pm
(December 7, 2014 at 4:33 pm)robvalue Wrote: That's a shame, but it's still not good enough. Lowering standards of evidence to account for technology makes no sense. Either you have evidence beyond reasonable doubt, or you do not.
I can say there is not sufficient evidence, I'm not saying there is no evidence.
Not sufficient evidence for you who doesn't believe in miracles. But for a person who does believe in miracles this eye witness testimony could be strong evidence backing their belief.
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:39 pm
So a miracle is something that reinforces one's belief. Got it.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:42 pm
(December 7, 2014 at 4:37 pm)Thor Wrote: (December 7, 2014 at 4:25 pm)Heywood Wrote: Except for the pesky Miracle of Calanda. That was verified by people at the time......you just don't accept their verification and want to see an amputee's limb restored for yourself....but this is an unreasonable expectation.
A mere claim from nearly 400 years ago, supposedly witnessed by.... who? Do we have names of these witnesses? And even so, how can we know the witnesses weren't mistaken, lying or duped? Why is there only ONE instance of a limb supposedly regenerating? Interesting that this has never occurred in modern times where scientists and medical professionals could attest to it.
Thor, I addressed this already. Events which happen over and over again are not miracles. Events which happen over and over are just the way the world works. Miracles are unrepeatable one off events....they are special. That is what makes them miracles.
I does not follow that just because this "miracle" occurred nearly 400 years ago that it must not have happened. That thinking is errant.
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:46 pm
(December 7, 2014 at 4:42 pm)Heywood Wrote: I does not follow that just because this "miracle" occurred nearly 400 years ago that it must not have happened. That thinking is errant.
People were much easier convinced than they're now. In short, especially in Spain at the time, common people were as uneducated as they come.
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:53 pm
(December 7, 2014 at 4:42 pm)Heywood Wrote: Thor, I addressed this already. Events which happen over and over again are not miracles. Events which happen over and over are just the way the world works. Miracles are unrepeatable one off events....they are special. That is what makes them miracles.
I does not follow that just because this "miracle" occurred nearly 400 years ago that it must not have happened. That thinking is errant.
An event that happens "over and over again" can most certainly be a miracle! A miracle is a violation of physics or natural law. If every time an airplane was about to crash, the plane became suspended in midair a few feet off the ground, allowing all the passengers to get off... that would be a miracle no matter how many times it happened. And the fact that your alleged miracle happened almost 400 years ago is reason to doubt it, because it's impossible to verify. Remember... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: Catholic miracles
December 7, 2014 at 4:55 pm
Sure, some people have very low standards of evidence. Not much I can do about that.
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