Agnostic: a pointless term?

[Simon Moon]

Which would only make sense if God doesn't exist. In the case of God existing, there is no logical reason to think there is no good reason to believe in his existence.

Well...

Since the case that a god exists has never met its burden of proof, you contention is a non-starter.

But let's say a god does exist, but decides to remain entirely hidden. Would there be a logical reason to disbelieve such a god exists?

You know, there was a time some months back that your reasoning and critical thinking skills seemed to be a bit better. What happened?

[Whateverist]

I think there are many forces, and possibly even entities, in the universe so grand relative to humans that we'd be willing to call them gods.

So, based on your private experience, you are disposed to allow for a god like entity. Easy to see why you are unwilling to describe yourself as even a weak atheist. I on the other hand, having had no such encounters, am quite content to cop to soft atheism .. even though I feel that my agnosticism says more about me than my atheism.

There are experiences so powerful that the choice of whether to call them "religious" is more semantics than anything else-- certainly, some of us here have had experiences that others would call religious.

Absolutely. But such experiences don't immediately point to anyone in charge or a creator so far as I can tell. Since everything I experience has to register through my being, these experiences may very well be as much or more about ourselves than it is the cosmos. In fact, that is my bias given my experience.

But, to me, that inability to resolve a question into a single answer is a good reason to take the position that I simply do not know the answer.

Are you equally agnostic toward all unverifiable beliefs? Dragons, faeries, shape shifters and all the rest require you not admit to a bias? I'm sure I'm every bit as agnostic as you, but I'm quite happy to concede which way my bias tends. I find none of this silly stuff at all plausible, gods included. It isn't a position I'm committed to; it is simply my position pending a coherent reason to think otherwise.

Earlier you mentioned that your toe and your toaster have no belief in gods yet we don't call them atheists. We don't call them agnostics either. Basically, so far as we know, only humans are capable of taking a position on a hypothetical proposition posed in symbolic language.

[Thumpalumpacus]

To be fair, things like dragons and unicorns are so clearly defined that a clear repudiation of them is simple. Something like a god, however, which can range from an anthropomorphic superhero to an immaterial presence suffusing the entire material universe, and all points in between -- that's a bit harder to say, "I definitely know that doesn't exist." A bit like nailing the proverbial jell-o to the wall.

[bennyboy]

Absolutely. But such experiences don't immediately point to anyone in charge or a creator so far as I can tell. Since everything I experience has to register through my being, these experiences may very well be as much or more about ourselves than it is the cosmos. In fact, that is my bias given my experience.

I agree. I don't consider myself agnostic about the source of my experiences-- I think they are natural and intrinsic to the way humans think, especially under duress or when studying ideas (like philosophy or modern physics) which undermine our normal way of looking at things.

However, I also know that when religious people talk about religious experience, they are talking about experiences similar to some of mine.

Are you equally agnostic toward all unverifiable beliefs? Dragons, faeries, shape shifters and all the rest require you not admit to a bias? I'm sure I'm every bit as agnostic as you, but I'm quite happy to concede which way my bias tends.

It is because dragons are well defined that I can disbelieve in them without reservation. With regard to God, if I'm supplied with a clear definition (e.g. "Sky Daddy"), I'm likely to identify as an (agnostic) atheist. My religious agnosticism is more complex: it involves an awareness of the ambiguity of terms, of a recognition of the human inability to collect information about reality, etc.

Earlier you mentioned that your toe and your toaster have no belief in gods yet we don't call them atheists. We don't call them agnostics either. Basically, so far as we know, only humans are capable of taking a position on a hypothetical proposition posed in symbolic language.

That's exactly right. I consider an "-ism" a position, not just a description of a belief one happens to have (or to lack). I have an active belief about the human condition, and a pessimistic view of the human capacity to observe and comprehend the fullness of the reality of the universe, and this leads me to take on the position that we are intrinsically agnostic about cosmogony and other issues often related to the God idea.

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To be fair, things like dragons and unicorns are so clearly defined that a clear repudiation of them is simple. Something like a god, however, which can range from an anthropomorphic superhero to an immaterial presence suffusing the entire material universe, and all points in between -- that's a bit harder to say, "I definitely know that doesn't exist." A bit like nailing the proverbial jell-o to the wall.

That's right. And what's worse, I've heard definitions of God (albeit strange ones) that I think might exist-- and some which necessarily do.

For example, if you said "God is whatever principle, force or entity which allows the universe to exist rather than not existing," then God would necessarily exist-- and I would still have absolutely no idea what it was or how to look for proof of it.

[robvalue]

I think the most common definitions people give for God are:

1) "You know... God."
2) "Dont you know who God is?"

[Whateverist]

I think the most common definitions people give for God are:

1) "You know... God."
2) "Dont you know who God is?"

Don't forget the hand waving. I'm pretty sure that is supposed to convey a considerable portion of the definition.

[GrandizerII]

Just wondering if I am the only one here who views a difference in meaning between active belief and knowledge ...

I [actively] believe I will still be alive half an hour from now, but I don't know if I will still be alive then.

[robvalue]

Whoops misread.

[Dystopia]

I think a lot about definitions and uses of words. And I've come to think that the agnostic/gnostic distinction isn't worth the confusion it causes. I've lost count of the number of people who think agnosticism is mutually exclusive to atheism.

Obviously it isn't. Agnosticism and atheism aren't mutually exclusive. You can be an agnostic and an atheist, or an agnostic and a theist

The first problem is the definitions. If you're gnostic, you know your belief is true. If you're agnostic, you're not certain your belief is true. So the next thing is to look at what "know" means.

Agnostics don't know, gnostics know

It's useless to say that you can know something if and only if it is actually true. By that definition, we have no idea what we actually know out of the things we know. I believe that in general usage, to know something is to have a justified belief that it is true.

WTF for the first two phrases?

I agree with the last sentence, justified belief that it is true

So, how much justification do you need before you say you know something? I would put forward two standards.

The first is that you are claiming it is impossible that your conclusion is wrong. You may still be actually wrong, but you are definitely correct given all the available information, and considering what other information you do not know that might affect your decision. That is a bit long winded and convoluted, so you can pretty much equate it with saying you are definitely right, what you actually know is fact.

The second definition is that you are convinced beyond reasonable doubt that you are correct, (given the information you have or do not have).

- I don't think it is impossible for my conclusion to be wrong - I think that given the current standards it is logically viable and knowledgeable

In my opinion, the first definition is almost worthless. The only cases in which I think it applies is in abstract cases, where you correctly use the laws of logic to draw a conclusion from a premise, or demonstrate the premise is impossible. But in reality, most claims that are worth debating are not going to be so clear cut. So you are giving a confidence value. If I say I know something, say for example that when I drop an object it will fall, I'm saying it would be ridiculous to expect otherwise. But it's not impossible that I am wrong. The degree of confidence your give is up to you to decide. In this way, saying you know something is a claim. To demonstrate that your claim is true, you need to show how you arrived at that conclusion. Another person may then evaluate the claim, and then either agree or disagree based on their own degree of confidence.

It's not really like that. And it is impossibly according to the law of gravity of it not to fall, therefore I know if will not.

So if we agree that for the most part a claim of knowledge is a claim of a justified belief beyond reasonable doubt, then I think the terms gnostic and agnostic are redundant. By this definition, I know there is no God, in the same way I know an object will fall when I drop it. Absolute certainty is an almost useless concept, so to insist on it at any point is to render all discussions meaningless or to hide behind solipsism.

Agree.

Weirdly though, you don't really need either term when dismissing some of the most common God claims. Any claim of omnipotent, omniscient and/or omni benevolent can be defeated simply by pointing out that such a think is a logical impossibility. It contradicts both itself and reality, and to accept it could be possible would be to accept that actual contradictions can exist in reality. If you go down this route, you can again hide behind solipsism and other mental defences, but you're really just admitting you're not interested in what is possible in reality.

Yes

But towards any general God claim that isn't going the omni route, i would say that agnosticism and Gnosticism are essentially the same thing to most atheists. Saying there is an extremely tiny minute possibility that a book written 2000 years ago might in fact be all true and that the characterises in it actually exist, is just the same as saying there is a tiny minute possibility an object will float away rather than fall when I drop it.

Actually the possibility of the bible being true is lower than gravity being fake, since gravity has been observed and proven true trough verifiable observation


I consider myself a gnostic atheist because I don't buy the premise that we can't know if gods exist. For me to go back to agnosticism, I'd need zero evidence pointing that god exists and that he doesn't. However, the thing is that there is evidence contradictory to gods existing, therefore it's not illogical to claim I know beyond reasonable doubt that gods don't exist. Also, since no one can define what a god is with certainty, I could as well propose I know something that is not minimally defined can exist.

I know agnosticism is comfortable because you simply say "I don't know", but I don't mind handling the criticism, I like certainty and knowledge.

I can claim knowledge on every topic, I don't see why I should treat god differently.

The distinction isn't utterly useless since if encompasses two different positions, one of absence of knowledge and other of possession of knowledge - In my opinion it is not viable to follow the former route just for the sake of a tiny chance god may exist, though it is easier to argue for agnosticism. But easy is boring, and gnosticism is more interesting.

To be fair, things like dragons and unicorns are so clearly defined that a clear repudiation of them is simple. Something like a god, however, which can range from an anthropomorphic superhero to an immaterial presence suffusing the entire material universe, and all points in between -- that's a bit harder to say, "I definitely know that doesn't exist." A bit like nailing the proverbial jell-o to the wall.

Since god is not defined, I know something not defined already cannot exist

[bennyboy]

Holy crap.

I think the resurrection of this thread proves that Blackout is God. Or that this thread is. . . or that this thread is Blackout in a different form.