Suicide

[Brakeman]

The death on the cross was a physical representation of what God went through to offer us forgiveness, so we had some idea of the cost.

To a man with infinite money there is no meaning of a price tag. For a god of all powers, there is no meaning of a sacrifice.

[dyresand]

The death on the cross was a physical representation of what God went through to offer us forgiveness, so we had some idea of the cost.

would you die on the cross if god asked you to do him a favor?

[IATIA]

For a god of all powers, there is no meaning of a sacrifice.

Yeah, but god loved his bar-b-que. Starting with Cain and Abel.

I did not climb to the top of the food chain to eat rabbit food.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Fire fighters don't train themselves for years to run into a building while everyone else is running out? Some intend to spend a life time doing this very thing. Many on 9/11 did.

The same is true for the soldier, and an arguement can be made for the mother. While the indivisual desisions may have been made in a relative short amount of time when compared to an infinite past, I would say if one's duty or love is that strong to have themselves sacrifice themselves for another, these people would do this no matter how much time they had to think about it.

Not quite the same as my brother firefighters running into WTC 2 knowing goddamned well they were staring into eternity. Your god had it easy. I wonder how many of those firefighters ran to their deaths without being saved, meaning that they chose an eternity in hell (by your theology) to save their fellow men?

That looks like a much deeper, and much less vainglorious, sacrifice than your little Christ giving up a weekend drinking wine with his homies.

[dyresand]

Fire fighters don't train themselves for years to run into a building while everyone else is running out? Some intend to spend a life time doing this very thing. Many on 9/11 did.

The same is true for the soldier, and an arguement can be made for the mother. While the indivisual desisions may have been made in a relative short amount of time when compared to an infinite past, I would say if one's duty or love is that strong to have themselves sacrifice themselves for another, these people would do this no matter how much time they had to think about it.

Not quite the same as my brother firefighters running into WTC 2 knowing goddamned well they were staring into eternity. Your god had it easy. I wonder how many of those firefighters ran to their deaths without being saved, meaning that they chose an eternity in hell (by your theology) to save their fellow men?

That looks like a much deeper, and much less vainglorious, sacrifice than your little Christ giving up a weekend drinking wine with his homies.

god is a fucking hypocrite sending men to hell for helping people from death. in the case of christianity death is a gift from god that men choose to freely reject. i gladly reject death because its bad.

[Drich]

Is a mother rushing out into traffic to save a child considered suicide?

If the child doesn't ask his mother to save him, is it okay if the mother makes the deliberate decision to stand there and do nothing? Is that mother a good person? Is it the child's fault that he dies?

The action is complete on the 'mother's' end. (God has done all He can do for a sentient being.) Now it is up to the child to push away the saving efforts of his parent.

[dyresand]

If the child doesn't ask his mother to save him, is it okay if the mother makes the deliberate decision to stand there and do nothing? Is that mother a good person? Is it the child's fault that he dies?

The action is complete on the 'mother's' end. (God has done all He can do for a sentient being.) Now it is up to the child to push away the saving efforts of his parent.

that only proves that god has no free will he knows the child is going to die but does nothing about it. because if he could he would be imperfect.

[Drich]

The death on the cross was a physical representation of what God went through to offer us forgiveness, so we had some idea of the cost.

A few hours of suffering, extreme, I admit, then Emperor of the Universe.

I don't really call that a sacrifice.

"God" could have snapped his fingers and made his changes, and then sent down swarms of angels to tell the world all about it.

Maybe that's exactly what happened, but in order for us to benfit from this 'snap' desision we had to first reverence the seriousness of sin, and understand the pain and suffering this 'snap' desision caused spiritually.

As we are physical beings we would need to see a physical representation of God's desision inorder to understand and respect what was done for us on the level acceptable enough to God in order that we may benfit from it with him.

Let's say you took on a second job (nights and weekends) from the time your kid was born to save up enough to send him to collage and when it was time your angel says "collage is for suckers just give me the money. You saved it for me, so let me spend it on what I want." ( Pot, pizza, and video games.) all while living in the basement still on your dime.

The question is do you just give him what you saved working nights and weekends for 18 years to spend on video games and pot? Or do you tell him the money is there when he wants to stop being a bum, and goto school?

In the collage senerio the parent made a large sacrifice (to which the bum kid may never full understand) just to send the kid to school. As such the parent has the right/obligation to make sure Jr. doesn't just smoke away all the parent worked for. Like wise God has given us a gift in the attonement He offers, and He has ensured that we can understand what has been done for us so we can understand and accept what has been done on his terms, so that we like the pot head son doesn't just let this oppertunity for attonement just waste away.

---

The death on the cross was a physical representation of what God went through to offer us forgiveness, so we had some idea of the cost.

And I repeat - we're supposed to be impressed by that?

Why are you looking to be impressed?

What was done was an effort to allow for a relateable comprehension, so that we may understand why it is nessary for us to follow the terms of the gospel as a means to salvation from sin rather than mandate everyone who ever lived be forced into Heaven.

---

The death on the cross was a physical representation of what God went through to offer us forgiveness, so we had some idea of the cost.

To a man with infinite money there is no meaning of a price tag. For a god of all powers, there is no meaning of a sacrifice.

The meaning wasn't for God to understand the cost of the forgiveness of our sins. The death on the cross and the beating before was so we could know the spiritual pain/loss God suffered to forgive our sins.

---

The death on the cross was a physical representation of what God went through to offer us forgiveness, so we had some idea of the cost.

would you die on the cross if god asked you to do him a favor?

That's the thing, because Christ did, God doesn't need any more 'favors.' That means anyone asking on the behalf of God, isn't.

---

Fire fighters don't train themselves for years to run into a building while everyone else is running out? Some intend to spend a life time doing this very thing. Many on 9/11 did.

The same is true for the soldier, and an arguement can be made for the mother. While the indivisual desisions may have been made in a relative short amount of time when compared to an infinite past, I would say if one's duty or love is that strong to have themselves sacrifice themselves for another, these people would do this no matter how much time they had to think about it.

Not quite the same as my brother firefighters running into WTC 2 knowing goddamned well they were staring into eternity. Your god had it easy. I wonder how many of those firefighters ran to their deaths without being saved, meaning that they chose an eternity in hell (by your theology) to save their fellow men?

That looks like a much deeper, and much less vainglorious, sacrifice than your little Christ giving up a weekend drinking wine with his homies.

So?

..... (Empathy).....

What makes you think that Jesus (pre death) knew any more than the firefighters did? His prayer would seem to indicate otherwise.

---

Not quite the same as my brother firefighters running into WTC 2 knowing goddamned well they were staring into eternity. Your god had it easy. I wonder how many of those firefighters ran to their deaths without being saved, meaning that they chose an eternity in hell (by your theology) to save their fellow men?

That looks like a much deeper, and much less vainglorious, sacrifice than your little Christ giving up a weekend drinking wine with his homies.

god is a fucking hypocrite sending men to hell for helping people from death. in the case of christianity death is a gift from god that men choose to freely reject. i gladly reject death because its bad.

So?

---

Sorry my empathy was used up on my last post.. Your just going to have to tell me your point if you want to continue this conversation.

---

The action is complete on the 'mother's' end. (God has done all He can do for a sentient being.) Now it is up to the child to push away the saving efforts of his parent.

that only proves that god has no free will he knows the child is going to die but does nothing about it. because if he could he would be imperfect.

What makes you think 'all children' belong to God?

Clearly as you said in your last post you do not. So why should God care about what happens to those who do not belong to Him especially when caring for those who hate Him and His followers will disrupt what God wants for those who belong to Him?

[Ryantology]

The action is complete on the 'mother's' end. (God has done all He can do for a sentient being.) Now it is up to the child to push away the saving efforts of his parent.

For whatever reason, the child resists or refuses to be saved, because children sometimes do weird and irrational shit. The mother shrugs and walks away, allowing the child to be run down.

Is the mother no longer responsible for the safety of her child just because the child may protest her attempt to save him from mortal danger? Does the mother get to say "My child deserves it. I told him not to go out into the street"? Would that be the sentiment of a good person?

Additionally, is it not one of the highest, most noble and heroic and good acts, to go so far to save another's life as sacrificing your own existence?

why should God care about what happens to those who do not belong to Him especially when caring for those who hate Him and His followers will disrupt what God wants for those who belong to Him?

I dunno, love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, etc.?

A being which would let a person suffer or die just because that person doesn't love them isn't a being that deserves the presumptive title of "ultimate good". That kind of being is just a petty bastard who favors sycophancy.

[Cyberman]

Drich, you're the one waving a picture of your god's dick around and going "waaah, look at the big sacrifice and it's all for you, ungrateful heathen." It's not our fault that we just see a petulant child screaming for attention, nor that we give your screaming all the consideration it deserves. Bottom line is I don't care that your god dies in the story. I didn't cry when Obi-Wan Kenobi died either.