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Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am
Hello.
I've observed a growing trend in public interactions and online spaces in the way atheists behave. Bullying women, insulting gays, alienating anyone who doesn't subscribe to nerd culture. Is the lack of humanistic principles in Atheism leading to cult behavior? Or what else explains this?
It may not be a religion, but most atheists behave exactly like members of organized religion. Sorry if this has been brought up before. It's a worrying trend. A lot of late teen, early 20 atheists I've met won't think twice before using 'cunt' or 'faggot', or other such forms merciless insulting.
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:19 am
Atheists are people, same as anyone else. You're gonna get dick ones, and nice ones. In fact, you're gonna get a long and storied continuum of types, each individual member of which may slide along that continuum at different times depending on where they are, who they're with, and what's happening to them.
People are complicated. I'd steer clear of simplistic blanket statements in future, though. You'll never catch even a hint of the entire group in one, outside of a few very basic scenarios, despite the fact that what you're claiming sets out to do exactly that.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:26 am
(December 17, 2014 at 3:19 am)Esquilax Wrote: People are complicated. I'd steer clear of simplistic blanket statements in future, though. You'll never catch even a hint of the entire group in one, outside of a few very basic scenarios, despite the fact that what you're claiming sets out to do exactly that. I'm not making blanket statements about an entire group. I'm speaking specifically of the the ill folk (who are actually quite a lot), those who are increasingly becoming vocal. Shouldn't there be something in place to prevent them doing the exact same damage religion does?
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:29 am
(This post was last modified: December 17, 2014 at 3:32 am by robvalue.)
Errrrr... This would be a trend of people. Atheists are not a group. Atheism doesn't lead logically to any other position.
Sure, if people are acting like dicks then they should be stopped. But bringing atheism into it is a total red herring. Does not believing in invisible unicorns also result in this behaviour?
You said most atheists behave like members of an organised religion. I think that's a ludicrous statement and I'd like to see the evidence for that please.
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:38 am
I agree that tribalistic behavior can be observed, the misogynists within atheism are quite visible, and some "leaders" are less than perfect to say the least. I don't think though that it is particularly useful to take the comparison with organized religion very far. What can one do? Speaking up against these things and trying to be a visible voice against bullying oneself I suppose.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:40 am
(December 17, 2014 at 3:29 am)robvalue Wrote: Errrrr... This would be a trend of people. Atheists are not a group. Atheism doesn't lead logically to any other position.
Sure, if people are acting like dicks then they should be stopped. But bringing atheism into it is a total red herring. Does not believing in invisible unicorns also result in this behaviour? I didn't say atheists were a group or that Atheism logically leads to something else. I said that there are certain atheists, who unbound by any rules are taking to bullying and some cultish behavior. I'm not saying an atheist by default turns into a dick, but it's likely that an atheist without an underlying humanistic sense won't think twice about being a dick. And that's pretty much on the rise.
Unicorns what??
(December 17, 2014 at 3:29 am)robvalue Wrote: You said most atheists behave like members of an organised religion. I think that's a ludicrous statement and I'd like to see the evidence for that please. I haven't been around the net too much, but I could tell you a few my personal life if they count.
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:43 am
(December 17, 2014 at 3:29 am)robvalue Wrote: Errrrr... This would be a trend of people. Atheists are not a group. Atheism doesn't lead logically to any other position.
While that's technically correct, reality is not like that - there is such a thing as the atheist community offline and online which is comprised of activists, writers and speakers, they do conferences together, there are official orgs, have blogs, networks. At the same time, the public perceives atheists as a group with leading proponents which are almost household names. Again, technically, pure atheism may have no other consequences, but that's not a useful insight here imho
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:45 am
(December 17, 2014 at 3:38 am)Alex K Wrote: I agree that tribalistic behavior can be observed, the misogynists within atheism are quite visible, and some "leaders" are less than perfect to say the least. I don't think though that it is particularly useful to take the comparison with organized religion very far. What can one do? Speaking up against these things and trying to be a visible voice against bullying oneself I suppose. Alex, many religions are fairly tribalistic or deeply patriarchal to say the least. They humiliate and bully anyone different. I feel my comparison to organized religion is a fair one.
For now, I too feel speaking up is all I can do. I hope that has a slight impact.
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 3:46 am
(This post was last modified: December 17, 2014 at 4:02 am by robvalue.)
A few from your personal life is not "most atheists".
Yes, some people are dicks. And they may presume to speak for atheism. They should be dealt with on an individual level. It has nothing to do with being an atheist.
My point is that trying to say there's a problem with atheists is saying there's a problem with people who aren't delusional.
I totally agree that if someone is behaving badly, that behaviour should be addressed. But trying to link it with atheism is a total non-sequitur.
I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just highlighting the problem with your claims. What do you propose? Atheism has no structure. There are no rules to change to stop people being a dick.
I just don't know what your point is. Atheists are sane. Some sane people can be dicks. So...?
The only way you could address what you're saying is to actually create a structure to atheism. Which would then make it just like religion, defeating the object.
I see alex, I guess you are making the distinction between a general atheist and an "active atheist", one who does join some sort of group or movement. That's fair enough, but to refer to them as the same thing in an accusation is dishonest.
It is good that you are standing up against what you perceive as a problem. I'm all for that. My point is that you are misrepresenting the problem. If you want to make any sort of link between atheism and a general behaviour, you necessarily have to pick out a certain group of people within atheism, who have agreed on some sort of extra agenda.
Other atheists are not responsible for this. It's not like religions where we are worshipping the same book that promotes such behaviour. I'm a person, who happens to not be delusional.
I totally agree that any kind of bullying behaviour is disgusting and should be addressed. But it has to be dealt with either on an individual level, or as a group of self-identified atheists such as a particular forum or group. Just pointing the finger at atheists in general and saying we need to get our shit together makes no sense.
So my question is, what do you propose? I'm happy to speak out against atheists who are being dicks. That's no problem. I do not lend any support to any of their actions because I happen to also be an atheist, either implicitly or explicitly.
To continue my drivel...
How is this problem any different to just highlighting particular people or self-identified groups who are doing something wrong, and dealing with them? Bringing atheism in general into it is like complaining that they have 2 legs. They might decide to be the 2 leg let's bully people club, and then they should be stopped. But having 2 legs has nothing to do with the issue.
Atheists bully people who are different... Again a wildly broad and dishonest claim. SOME atheists may do this. Sure. And they damn well shouldn't.
It's religion who generally persecuted atheists. It may be that as atheism has grown legs, some people feel the need to get their own back. That is childish and wrong, and should be stopped. On an individual level.
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RE: Atheists turning to cult behaviour?
December 17, 2014 at 4:02 am
(This post was last modified: December 17, 2014 at 4:03 am by SoFarEast.)
A few from your personal life is not "most atheists".
Ok. I change that to most atheists I've met. There is enough evidence for their misogyny online. I just didn't want to quote other bloggers who you might already have read.
Yes, some people are dicks. And they may presume to speak for atheism. They should be dealt with on an individual level. It has nothing to do with being an atheist.
Kinda of what I'm trying to get at. Should pure atheism be necessarily followed up by a few humanistic principles? Pure atheism itself doesn't actually ensure any less madness.
The only way you could address what you're saying is to actually create a structure to atheism. Which would then make it just like religion, defeating the object.
Firstly, I'm not saying non belief in itself needs a structure. But non belief is not sufficient. Secondly, you seem to argue its more important to make sure Atheism is not defined as a religion, than making sure that Atheists dont behave exactly the way religious people do.
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