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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 1:29 pm
(This post was last modified: January 2, 2015 at 1:30 pm by Alex K.)
(January 2, 2015 at 1:27 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: It is defined as: men make more money than women for the same work.
There's also the "men make more money than women because they get better-paid jobs", which is possibly just as relevant
(January 2, 2015 at 1:27 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: (January 2, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Alex K Wrote: There are some studies that show that the wage gap is a myth? Well I suppose that proves it.
Well there are some people who say the wage gap isn't a myth? Well I suppose that proves it. Next time say something useful.
The fact that there is a wage gap is more or less the mainstream position of social science people, isn't it?
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 1:30 pm
Then you aren't talking about the wage gap
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 1:32 pm
(This post was last modified: January 2, 2015 at 1:33 pm by Dystopia.)
Quote:It is defined as: men make more money than women for the same work.
No, it's a percentage of male earnings compared to female earnings, and it's not about paychecks only - It's about questioning social foundations, asking questions like "Why do females choose less well paid jobs? It's really because they are biologically programmed or is it because it's not a woman's job according to society?"
Quote:There's also the "men make more money than women because they get better-paid jobs", which is possibly just as relevant
It is very relevant, specially the why - Why do men chose more well paid jobs? Is it really just biology telling us to chose our jobs this way? 
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 1:43 pm
Well then we are talking about two different issues. I was talking about the claim that women make less money than men for the same work. It's been shown that it simply isn't true. However, it is true that men make more money than women in general.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 1:55 pm
(This post was last modified: January 2, 2015 at 1:59 pm by Dystopia.)
(January 2, 2015 at 1:43 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Well then we are talking about two different issues. I was talking about the claim that women make less money than men for the same work. It's been shown that it simply isn't true. However, it is true that men make more money than women in general.
Not really, in my country for example there are laws that make it illegal to pay differently for the same job, but in some American states, for example there are cases of women earning less than their workplace inferior co-workers so I would be careful when saying that it isn't true, it's half-truth IMO - This is more prone to happening if there is a lack of labour laws and the prevalent mentality is the "free hiring, free salary and free firing". However I'd like to point out that the pay gap isn't merely about exercising the same job as you put it, it's about on average the salary you'll have during your lifetime will be lower simply because you were born with a vagina, and I'm not even going to talk about other discriminated groups of people like transexuals or gays.
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 1:58 pm
(This post was last modified: January 2, 2015 at 2:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Pretty sure, in our little system, it's patently impossible to earn less than your "inferiors" - as how much someone pays you for whatever you do is precisely how we judge who's "inferior"? I make more money than the guy I'm working for currently - because I'm worth more to the guys -he- works for (and those I manage often make more than me, regardless of their sex - more hours available-). Who's the "inferior" -and to whom- with regards to my entirely normal situation? I'm just trying to figure out what it is you're talking about, link an example or something?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 2:01 pm
(January 2, 2015 at 1:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Pretty sure, in our little system, it's patently impossible to earn less than your "inferiors" - as how much someone pays you for whatever you do is precisely how we judge who's "inferior"? I make more money than the guy I'm working for currently - because I'm worth more to the guys -he- works for. Who's the "inferior"? It's complicated to determine... For instance, in my country CEO's make much more than the president or prime minister, but from a legal standpoint they are inferior... However it's more pragmatic to stick to a simple definition regarding the traditional modern capitalist company - There are job offices, several functions and usually people with the same job/function earn the same - There are higher paying positions like being the CEO's, the owner or being the vice-president, and so on, and there are less well paid positions like being the cleaning guy who washes the toilet and cleans the desk.
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 2:04 pm
(This post was last modified: January 2, 2015 at 2:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 2, 2015 at 2:01 pm)Blackout Wrote: There are job offices, several functions and usually people with the same job/function earn the same That has never been my experience of capitalism. How does anybody know what the other guys makes in order to normalize his request or expectations anyway? Sounds to me...honestly, like some pretty heavy handed planning - socialism, not capitalism. The "traditional modern capitalist economy" -in this regard- is that you're worth whatever someone will pay you/can be conned into paying you....regardless of what it is that you actually do.
Quote: - There are higher paying positions like being the CEO's, the owner or being the vice-president, and so on, and there are less well paid positions like being the cleaning guy who washes the toilet and cleans the desk.
Sure, the guy at the wheel makes more than the guy scrubbing the shitter - sometimes (I;d say a crushing majority of the time). However, if you found me a janitor that makes more money than the ceo and the ceo was female and the janitor male... the very last thing I'd chalk that up to is gender inequality.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 2:09 pm
(This post was last modified: January 2, 2015 at 2:10 pm by Dystopia.)
Quote:That has never been my experience of capitalism. How does anybody know what the other guys makes in order to normalize his request or expectations anyway?
By a number of means - There could be official documents containing the salary for every kind of job, sometimes people chat with each other, it depends... I don't know what company you work in, so I cannot talk about it. I don't even know if you work in a company or "alone"/"by yourself"
Quote:Sure, the guy at the wheel makes more than the guy scrubbing the shitter - sometimes (I;d say a crushing majority of the time). However, if you found me a janitor that makes more money than the ceo and the ceo was female and the janitor male...the very last thing I'd chalk that up to is gender inequality.
Yes, because it is highly unlikely that a janitor makes more than a CEO and I'd probably be interested in knowing the quality of his work that earns so much money. But if you tell me that the average doctor makes more as a male than as a female I'd be interested in knowing the cause and consider it could be gender discrimination
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RE: Why so many "anti-feminists" in the atheist community?
January 2, 2015 at 2:14 pm
(This post was last modified: January 2, 2015 at 2:16 pm by ketameankitty.)
Oh wow, seven pages! Well thank you guys for the welcoming discussion! ^^
So much to say and so many things I want to reply to...I can't keep track of it all! Ahaha!
Quote:Atheism is just a personal stance one takes because their experience doesn't lead them to believe that God exists. Why do you take a step further to that others can't be with a justified reason to believe God exists so that they should leave faith in God?
Why are you in the business of wanting to convert others?
I guess Richard Dawkins put it best when he said, "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world." Concepts in spirituality were (and still are) created to fill in gaps for the things we don't know. In my opinion, that limits the need to research those things we don't know, because people are happy with the fairytaled explanation instead. Religion, on the other hand, goes beyond ideas and forces moralities and ways of life on people. Example, Catholics aren't supposed to have sex before marriage, and forcing that religious morality upon them can cause serious sexual repression which can lead to some even more serious mental health issues and respective negative outcomes (priests raping boys, for example). I know that not all spirituality and not all religion is bad, but I just think the world would be a better place if it was populated by more curious-minded free thinkers instead.
Quote:OP I have an interesting question - Do you think it is rational to be a feminist and religious at the same time or are the two positions not compatible?
Hm, that is hard to say considering I don't know about all of the world religions and all of their dogmas. But I feel that it's safe to say with the major religions it would be very contradictory to be a feminist. Religions have set gender roles, and women aren't even allowed to participate as leaders often times (ex. Catholics don't let women become priests; nuns are /not/ an equivalent because they cannot lead mass or perform the Seven Sacraments). That said, I know that a lot of feminists do still adhere to their religious upbringing (largely out of fear and comfort), but if they took the time to realize they're paying into a system that is working against them, many of them would reconsider. After all, I kind of had to stop going to Catholic church when I stopped putting money in the basket every Sunday--I didn't want my cash going toward their anti-abortion rallies and lobbyists!
--With that said, I don't think it's rational!
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