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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 4:43 am
(January 10, 2015 at 4:11 am)robvalue Wrote: Of course you can  Thank you for your answer, I liked it.
Indeed, what is real and unreal is a very difficult question. It's referred to as the problem of solipsism. We need to make certain assumptions in order to function at all. We either all agree that we have made them, or we cannot ever talk about anything. We assume our senses are giving us some roughly accurate view of things that are in some way real. We assume we can learn about this reality, whatever it is. That's about the minimum you need, or else no conversation can progress because nothing means anything. They cannot be fully justified (not yet anyhow, maybe never) except as a pragmatic approach.
After that, we have possibilities. Indeed yes, there could be some sort of thing that created our reality. I'm impressed to see you not shoe-horsing Yahweh in instantly on the sly, like is so often tried. My stance is that our knowledge points to a universe going back to virtually the Big Bang with good, natural explanations, and no need for any continuing interaction with the creator thing. So if it did create it, it's done with us, pending further information. At best it is observing, or interacting in ways specifically designed to be indistinguishable from what happens anyway. And expecting it to be intently observing our insignificant planet is a bit of a stretch.
If the creator is outside our reality, which seems the most plausible thing, then I would say it's impossible to test for it in any way, whether it's material or not. We are stuck with what is in this reality, unless some amazing new technology comes along.
So my conclusion is that there could be some external creator, but if so it is irrelevant, and untestable. There is however no good reason to assume there was a creator.
I think you came to kind of the same conclusion, but I tend to not put much stock in "could be" unless there is a reason to think there actually is. Adding unnecessary elements in an explanation tends to be a bad thing to do. Sure, almost anything "could be" the case, I don't deny it. Science instead worries just about what it can test, and doesn't speculate further except for new potential hypotheses with some grounding.
Very good answer I'm not trying to conclude that I'm right and you're wrong or anything, I think we approach the same results but from slightly different angles. My answer is a testable God claim is probably impossible, and you seem to agree.
Thank you. Indeed I don't find anything you've written to be false either. Good to find common agreeable ground.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 5:00 am
Excellent! This is something of a first for me with a theist Normally I find myself not only only a different page but in a different book. Different library even.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 9:16 am
Sorry Rob I haven't got back to this thread. I've part responded then lost the post shutting down my computer. Nice to be busy I guess!
#1.
If God created everything, then we can know that he is more than everything that exists. Time, matter etc.. So if we know that God is more than matter, we know that looking for evidence in matter alone is insufficient.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 9:59 am
(This post was last modified: January 10, 2015 at 10:32 am by robvalue.)
OK, but why would you even think such a thing exists if you know there is no evidence? Just because it can be conceived or may be possible, doesn't mean it "is".
Thanks for your reply anyway. Would you like to define "God"? Preferably in positive rather than negative terms. And why you have reason to believe what you describe exists outside of your imagination; then in what way it does exist. What does this existence mean.
I like the really tough questions. If this was a quiz, you'd get a truck load of points for these ones.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 12:15 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 3:57 am)Grasshopper Wrote: What you think is real is just electrical signals interpreted by your brain."
For all you know everything you see, hear, taste is not really there but something is tricking your brain with electrical signals. Very good. Everything we perceive is just a result of the brain's interpretation of the signals it receives. Grasshopper Wrote:Everything in this world is testable because it is made of matter. Now you have reneged on your original hypothesis. The testing is still nothing more than the brain interpreting signals.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 12:23 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 12:15 pm)IATIA Wrote: (January 10, 2015 at 3:57 am)Grasshopper Wrote: What you think is real is just electrical signals interpreted by your brain."
For all you know everything you see, hear, taste is not really there but something is tricking your brain with electrical signals. Very good. Everything we perceive is just a result of the brain's interpretation of the signals it receives.Grasshopper Wrote:Everything in this world is testable because it is made of matter. Now you have reneged on your original hypothesis. The testing is still nothing more than the brain interpreting signals.
And . . . . . .?
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 12:44 pm
And there may be no matter to test.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 12:49 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 12:44 pm)IATIA Wrote: And there may be no matter to test.
I'm sorry I don't get it
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 12:51 pm
(January 10, 2015 at 12:49 pm)Grasshopper Wrote: (January 10, 2015 at 12:44 pm)IATIA Wrote: And there may be no matter to test.
I'm sorry I don't get it
You defeated your own hypothesis.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 10, 2015 at 12:56 pm
You did a fatality on your own character!
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