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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:03 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 11:51 am)Tonus Wrote: (January 29, 2015 at 11:41 am)SteveII Wrote: This ignores that fact that the arguments are not meant to prove conclusively, but rather to assign a probability ranging from a) no way, b) more likely than not, or c) likely. You cannot claim 100% "no way" to any of them and support that conclusion. So on a subject which might be the most important one ever for both the individual and the human race as a whole, you're satisfied with "seems likely to me"? You feel that it's sufficient to admit that the evidence is poor, but at least it exists?
I'm guessing (again) that you apply a far stricter standard of evidence and reason in most other areas of your life. But for the one that you consider the most important, you set the bar astonishingly low.
Tonus, it is a cumulative case including that God is not philosophically irrational, evidence of Jesus, how the basic Christian worldview makes sense of what we 1) see, 2) feel, and 3) experience, and the available personal relationship with God. I have seen the undeniable life-changing effect that God has on people in real life.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:03 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 12:01 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: (January 29, 2015 at 11:56 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: If hearsay and post-hoc eyewitness ceremony is enough for the Christian God, then I'd appreciate Steve admitting that the "evidence" for Allah or the Hindu gods is just as "strong".
Don't hold your breath. I've tried a couple of times to get him to justify his double standard when he reads of miracle traditions outside his faith, but he doesn't want to play. No surprise, since that might expose him as -- gasp! -- irrational.
Oh I know, he's already demonstrated he's got about as much intellectual honesty as an anti-vax 9/11 truther, so I'm not expecting much at all.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:04 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 11:56 am)Crossless1 Wrote: (January 29, 2015 at 11:41 am)SteveII Wrote: I don't have to prove anything to you. I am only trying to avoid the claims that my beliefs are irrational. There is a very big difference between those two things.
In other words, "I'm not an idiot or a sucker! I'm really, really not!"
Impressive.
The word's humanity that claims these beings howl and scream and still none of them can prove it in a lab or get a patent or Nobel prize. It amounts to their own fear of being finite and protecting their egos.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:05 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 12:03 pm)SteveII Wrote: (January 29, 2015 at 11:51 am)Tonus Wrote: So on a subject which might be the most important one ever for both the individual and the human race as a whole, you're satisfied with "seems likely to me"? You feel that it's sufficient to admit that the evidence is poor, but at least it exists?
I'm guessing (again) that you apply a far stricter standard of evidence and reason in most other areas of your life. But for the one that you consider the most important, you set the bar astonishingly low.
Tonus, it is a cumulative case including that God is not philosophically irrational, evidence of Jesus, how the basic Christian worldview makes sense of what we 1) see, 2) feel, and 3) experience, and the available personal relationship with God. I have seen the undeniable life-changing effect that God has on people in real life.
Except god is asshole who loves to watch the world burn and his chosen people get lifted away from the madness of it all. 
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:08 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 12:03 pm)SteveII Wrote: I have seen the undeniable life-changing effect that God has on people in real life.
No, you have seen the undeniable life-changing effect that belief in God has on people in real life.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:09 pm
(This post was last modified: January 29, 2015 at 12:12 pm by SteveII.)
(January 29, 2015 at 12:01 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: (January 29, 2015 at 11:56 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: If hearsay and post-hoc eyewitness ceremony is enough for the Christian God, then I'd appreciate Steve admitting that the "evidence" for Allah or the Hindu gods is just as "strong".
Don't hold your breath. I've tried a couple of times to get him to justify his double standard when he reads of miracle traditions outside his faith, but he doesn't want to play. No surprise, since that might expose him as -- gasp! -- irrational.
"How about other miracles from other religions" is a hard thing to pin down and answer. Please suggest a miracle or two from another religion so we can discuss.
(January 29, 2015 at 12:05 pm)dyresand Wrote: Except god is asshole who loves to watch the world burn and his chosen people get lifted away from the madness of it all.
Just as I would want to distance myself from idiot statements from Christians, I would think that most atheists would want to distance themselves from statements like that.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:13 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 12:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: (January 29, 2015 at 12:01 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: Don't hold your breath. I've tried a couple of times to get him to justify his double standard when he reads of miracle traditions outside his faith, but he doesn't want to play. No surprise, since that might expose him as -- gasp! -- irrational.
"How about other miracles from other religions" is a hard thing to pin down and answer. Please suggest a miracle or two from another religion so we can discuss.
Let me ask you this. Do you think that any miracles from any other religions that are attributed to their God actually happened?
Or do you believe a) only Christian miracle claims have occurred, or
b) those miracles occurred but are due to the influence/intervention of the Christian god, and were misinterpreted by the adherents of the other religion, or maybe
c) Satan deceived them.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:14 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 12:03 pm)SteveII Wrote: Tonus, it is a cumulative case including that God is not philosophically irrational, evidence of Jesus, how the basic Christian worldview makes sense of what we 1) see, 2) feel, and 3) experience, and the available personal relationship with God. I have seen the undeniable life-changing effect that God has on people in real life. Note what the cumulative case is based on: things that "make sense" and are not "philosophically irrational." I find that vague and reliant on a pretty heavy dose of confirmation bias. Which is why it works for other religions as well.
I was a Christian for many years and am well aware of the extent to which people will credit god for things that happen in their lives. And mostly it's just a form of convenient interpretation. When things go well, god has blessed them. When something extraordinarily good happens, god has performed a miracle! When things don't go well, god is letting them face a test. If things go catastrophically bad, god had some purpose for putting them through it. And so on. When anything can be evidence of god's influence on your life, then everything becomes evidence. And now you have overwhelming evidence that god exists!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:15 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 12:08 pm)Chas Wrote: (January 29, 2015 at 12:03 pm)SteveII Wrote: I have seen the undeniable life-changing effect that God has on people in real life.
No, you have seen the undeniable life-changing effect that belief in God has on people in real life.
Good point. But you cannot say conclusively that God is not communicating with that changed person in some way.
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RE: A simple challenge for atheists
January 29, 2015 at 12:16 pm
(January 29, 2015 at 12:03 pm)SteveII Wrote: Tonus, it is a cumulative case including that God is not philosophically irrational, evidence of Jesus, how the basic Christian worldview makes sense of what we 1) see, 2) feel, and 3) experience, and the available personal relationship with God. I have seen the undeniable life-changing effect that God has on people in real life.
Presented with such an overwhelming case for the truth of Christianity, I present a rebuttal worthy of the integrity and intellectual toil that went into the making of the case:
 (In other words, I remain unimpressed and give less than a fuck.)
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