Hell and the Play Nice Christian

[Esquilax]

If you are referring to the 14 y/o kid who referred to his parents as "retarded" for being Christian yet claimed only to have a "lack of belief", the two are very different instances.

No, I'm referring to you demanding that we all have knowledge of god in our hearts here, misrepresenting what we know and believe, while simultaneously taking me to task for what you perceived to be a similar misrepresentation of WLC in my thread about him. It's actually worse here, though; even at best, and I still think you're being insanely presumptuous by telling me what I think in the WLC thread, I would have only been misrepresenting WLC's stated positions, whereas you're misrepresenting the private belief systems of an entire class of people here.

So, why the hypocrisy?

The real challenge is, can you say a single thing without a smug emote??

So, just deflection and ad hominem attacks, then?

[Godscreated]

As an interesting aside to this discussion, it's worth pointing out that children of religious upbringing have more difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction than those of secular households.

http://m.nydailynews.com/life-style/reli...5822#bmb=1

You call that a study, far to few children to call that an accurate study and all from one area. You could read different things into such a study, like this. Children of religious families have a better imagination than those of secular families, the proof is that only the religious aspect stays with the children when they get older. And to conclude the children of secular families a boring prudes when they grow up.

---

Not if they die before the age of accountability, that being different for each person, some never reach that age, the mentally handicapped for instance. This is why it's important to have children in church early in their lives. Please do not say some thing about indoctrination, that's a worn out subject and doesn't actually apply to this discussion, thanks.

GC

Where do you people go to get clarification on these sorts of particulars?

They come from the scriptures at least we do use a book to get answers about God, unlike atheist who pull stufffff out of the air with no source at all, well I guess we will accept an empty mind in your case.

GC

[The Reality Salesman01]

As an interesting aside to this discussion, it's worth pointing out that children of religious upbringing have more difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction than those of secular households.

http://m.nydailynews.com/life-style/reli...5822#bmb=1

You call that a study, far to few children to call that an accurate study and all from one area. You could read different things into such a study, like this. Children of religious families have a better imagination than those of secular families, the proof is that only the religious aspect stays with the children when they get older. And to conclude the children of secular families a boring prudes when they grow up.

66 kids were pulled from a mix of private, public and religious schools in Cambridge MA, and the surrounding area. Yes, GC. I'm sorry the data points in an unfavorable direction but I have a feeling that your sense of delusion is as strong as anyone's and you'll have no problem convincing yourself that it's the experiments fault that those poor kids have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality. It couldn't be that religious people are predisposed to believing stupid shit, right?

http://www.bu.edu/learninglab/files/2012...-press.pdf

[robvalue]

ah, never mind.

[The Reality Salesman01]

I should do that more often too.

---

I don't know how compelling that study is, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if it were true. My neighbor has a 12 year old daughter. She still believes in Santa Clause. I had an extremely entertaining conversation with her and examined her belief in Santa with the the Socratic Method. I was surprised at some of the mental backflips she was willing through in order to substantiate her previous answers to my questions. She pulled out every ad hoc property that's ever been used on this site to support one God or another and just like GC, she never experienced the slightest degree of incredulity when those properties were in blatant contradiction to one another. My neighbors go to church every Sunday and Wednesday. I have no doubt that if we removed Santa from our dialogue and plugged in "God", her arguments would be otherwise entirely the same...12 years old, shes in advanced classes and is really a bright little girl.

My son is 5. I don't tell him what to think, I help him on how to think better. I don't confirm suspicions and I don't lie to him either. His epistemology has been established by his own reasoning. I ask questions, he provides what he thinks to be the best answer...

After opening presents on Christmas morning he comes up to me and says

"Dad, Santa isn't real."
Me: How do you know that?

Jack: Because I saw a Santa at the store, and his beard was short. Then I saw another Santa and his beard was long. Hair doesn't grow that fast.
Me:Hmm, do you think that one of them could have been Santa, and the other a fake?
Jack: I don't know but, reindeer don't fly either. And it took a long time to get to Texas when we flew there. Santa can't go everywhere in one night.

Me: Good point. Then where do you think all the presents come from?

Jack: YOU

Me: (beaming with pride) and what about the kids who don't get presents?

Jack: I think their parents may not have the money. I don't think they are bad.

Me: I don't either.

Secular VS Religious

That's one sample, but it was really convincing to see first hand. Kids are smart, parents really shouldn't fuck that up.

[YGninja]

If you are referring to the 14 y/o kid who referred to his parents as "retarded" for being Christian yet claimed only to have a "lack of belief", the two are very different instances.

No, I'm referring to you demanding that we all have knowledge of god in our hearts here, misrepresenting what we know and believe, while simultaneously taking me to task for what you perceived to be a similar misrepresentation of WLC in my thread about him. It's actually worse here, though; even at best, and I still think you're being insanely presumptuous by telling me what I think in the WLC thread, I would have only been misrepresenting WLC's stated positions, whereas you're misrepresenting the private belief systems of an entire class of people here.

So, why the hypocrisy?

The real challenge is, can you say a single thing without a smug emote??

So, just deflection and ad hominem attacks, then?

1: I informed you of the Christian doctrine pertaining to Gods laws - its not something you have to read the Bible for, as it is written in your heart. This is not even similar to you pretending to quote someone while simply lying through your back teeth.

2: Deflecting what? Your rhetorical question?

3: You failed the challenge.

[robvalue]

You are asserting it is written on our heart. For such a bold statement, which sounds more metaphorical than anything else, justification is needed. Just repeating it is not justification.

If there's anything "written" for me to read about god, anywhere in my body, he has failed utterly to communicate it to me. And that's using the brain he gave me the best way I know how. If he's giving me a brain unable to read his own message, then that really is his problem not mine.

He should have written it in my brain, if he really wanted me to know it. I am not ignoring a message, there is no message that I am aware of.

What I am aware of is my conscience. It's a very real thing which plays a huge part in guiding the morality of my actions. But to just give credit for that to some undefined and unproved entity is pure fantasy.

---

Even if you could demonstrate that my conscience is "written by God", that doesn't explain:

1) Why the message changes over time, rather than being static like the bible.
2) Why some people are born with no conscience. God forgot to write on their hearts?

[Cinjin]

I really didn't intend to shit 'n run but I did sort of post one OP and disappear.

It was a fun read though upon my return.
Same old "tough shit, enjoy your hellfire" argument from GC. (take a bow)
Lek is slightly more friendly, offering us the "hey, relax its a temporary torture" argument. (take a bow)
I was hoping ChadWooters would jump in with his theory about god's big people-baking oven, but alas, I got nothing.
YG is fond of the "not my problem, it says what it says and I'll interpret how I see fit" argument (take a bow)
And of course all of my fellow enlightened non-believers offering up both humorous and insightful responses.

As always, I still have no conclusive answer to the question presented to the christians, as they can never agree on even the most basic premises of their "faith", but I thank you all for your interesting and sometimes bewildering responses.


Oh, this is sort of post script on the derailed portion of the thread:

The reason why some children invent a god in their minds without any indoctrination is the same reason we want to fly into space without ever having seen a rocket ship. We long to understand our own existence. Furthermore, those children on that theoretical desert island won't accept your Jesus. They'll do exactly what the rest of the human race did. They'll create groups and invent their own separate belief structures. In short order, they would become angry that one group didn't validate their particular god and they'd end up killing each other over a belief in a being that christians claim instilled those children to find and love him. History has proven to us that children don't invent a god because there's a real one out there shooting 'belief rays' into humans. What kind of inept god would create humans with a default setting to believe in any god they could come up with?!? It would be utter chaos and lead to endless wars and human tragedy and ... oh ... right.

[h4ym4n]

Those who deny hell or make it a place for the unforgiven to go and suffer little or no consequences, have no respect for His sovereignty.

GC

It's easy to deny what hasn't freely been given to you, right GC?

[Godscreated]

Those who deny hell or make it a place for the unforgiven to go and suffer little or no consequences, have no respect for His sovereignty.

GC

It's easy to deny what hasn't freely been given to you, right GC?

What are you even saying, and I do like your signature, thanks for spreading the truth.

GC