Why I'm Still a Christian

[Lek]

Last week I was in the midst of pursuing a discussion in this forum concerning a loving God when I suddenly realized that I had argued the same points numerous times before, and that this discussion would end the same way as all the rest - in seeming futility. This made me begin to re-examine why I spend so much time here and why I had even begun in the first place. I decided to back off, take a breather and summarize in my mind what had transpired in my thinking and beliefs since I had joined the form on December 14, 2013. What I have discovered is there has been quite a change since that day. I found that it can be very scary to venture out of the comfortable world that you've come to accept and face new possibilities. My thought was that if my faith was real and defensible, it should stand up up to all the questions, and I wanted to face them head-on. As I found out, you folks here were only too happy to oblige me in that regard.

Here's some things that have changed since Dec 14, 2013:

I was a progressive creationist and I am now an evolutionist. I've acquired a greater appreciation for what science can teach us.

Although I was never a biblical literalist, I am now more convinced that the bible is true and inspired, but it was not written to be a scientific or historical textbook, and so it can't always be relied to be specifically accurate in that regard.

Early church fathers supported views of hell other than eternal torment, but because the catholic church embraced that view, it became the prevailing view. I believe that, although the bible does definitely teach of hell as a place of torment, I don't believe that it teaches that one's time there will be eternal.

I have come to believe that those who haven't been able to hear of Christ , but truly seek God will be with him.

I was against gay marriage and civil unions, but I now support civil unions, but not gay marriage. I don't think the government has any business in marriage. I have come to realize that we are not a christian nation, but a secular one. Because of that all citizens are deserving of equal treatment under the law. I still think that homosexuality is sinful, but I think a lot of things people do are sinful, and this doesn't effect whether or not I care for an individual.

I realize that we can't count on God to always directly intervene in our affairs. Jesus didn't tell us if we believe in him he will make sure our lives are without trial or suffering. He also commissioned us to love our neighbor and to work to alleviate the suffering and oppression in the world. Our faith is to be active in the world and not just a spiritual "experience". Sorry to you non-christians and non-theists, but when I look around and see who is carrying out works of mercy locally and in the world, it's mostly christians. I believe that if a person possesses the truth, it will emanate from him or her.

Lastly, I have come to understand the atheist point of view on most matters. If I didn't believe in God, I would have the same views concerning faith, the bible and worldview. Unfortunately, I can't say I've made any friends here, but I think if we could meet in person that would happen. In this forum christians and atheists discuss their differences and not their similarities, so we don't have a rounded view of each other. The problem is that we discuss and re-discuss the same issues with no resolution because we can't claim any common ground. So sometimes I wonder if it's all a waste of time, but when I look back, though, I can say that it's been a benefit to me. My advice for searching christians, or anyone for that matter, is not to take anything in a forum as final, but to check it out for themselves using multiple sources, and not just one side of the issue.

As for me, I see myself as being a more enlightened christian, and will most likely be one for the rest of my life.

[Faith No More]

Well, congratulations at least on actually considering what others have said instead of simply putting your fingers in your ears. That alone separates you from a lot of the people here.

Can't say I agree with your conclusions, though.

[JesusHChrist]

Lek, it's a progression and it seems like you're moving toward reality - good for you.

After all of the evolution stuff begins to digest, you might consider how the fact of evolution and common descent jibes with original sin. I know the more liberal Christian types have some apologetic for it, but to an outsider, it doesn't make a lick of sense. There never was an Adam and Eve cavorting together nekkid in some garden in the middle east. DNA shows humans came from central Africa and there were never less than about 7000 of us. Species as a spectrum over time.... Again, the record is in the DNA.

Our "Adam" and our "Eve" never met and were apart in both time and geography. Hard to get them sinnin' without ever meeting. Without original sin, no need for Jesus and so the sweater unravels. Unless original sin is just a metaphor for humans being naughty, but did Jesus then die for a metaphor?

But, one step at a time. Or thread as the case may be. Before you know it, you'll have a pile on the ground.

[rexbeccarox]

---

Last week I was in the midst of pursuing a discussion in this forum concerning a loving God when I suddenly realized that I had argued the same points numerous times before, and that this discussion would end the same way as all the rest - in seeming futility. This made me begin to re-examine why I spend so much time here and why I had even begun in the first place. I decided to back off, take a breather and summarize in my mind what had transpired in my thinking and beliefs since I had joined the form on December 14, 2013. What I have discovered is there has been quite a change since that day. I found that it can be very scary to venture out of the comfortable world that you've come to accept and face new possibilities. My thought was that if my faith was real and defensible, it should stand up up to all the questions, and I wanted to face them head-on. As I found out, you folks here were only too happy to oblige me in that regard.

---

Welcome back.

Here's some things that have changed since Dec 14, 2013:

I was a progressive creationist and I am now an evolutionist. I've acquired a greater appreciation for what science can teach us.

Excellent!

Although I was never a biblical literalist, I am now more convinced that the bible is true and inspired, but it was not written to be a scientific or historical textbook, and so it can't always be relied to be specifically accurate in that regard.

So when can it be relied upon, and how do you know which parts are the accurate ones?

Early church fathers supported views of hell other than eternal torment, but because the catholic church embraced that view, it became the prevailing view. I believe that, although the bible does definitely teach of hell as a place of torment, I don't believe that it teaches that one's time there will be eternal.

Why not? How long do you think one's time there will be?

I have come to believe that those who haven't been able to hear of Christ , but truly seek God will be with him.

Why do you believe this?

I was against gay marriage and civil unions, but I now support civil unions, but not gay marriage. I don't think the government has any business in marriage.

But government does have business in marriage, as religion doesn't have a monopoly on the term. What do you want gay couples to do while you fight the government over semantics?

I have come to realize that we are not a christian nation, but a secular one. Because of that all citizens are deserving of equal treatment under the law. I still think that homosexuality is sinful, but I think a lot of things people do are sinful, and this doesn't effect whether or not I care for an individual.

I hope you meant to add that while you think it's sinful, you have no business sticking your nose into anyone's bedroom but your own.

I realize that we can't count on God to always directly intervene in our affairs. Jesus didn't tell us if we believe in him he will make sure our lives are without trial or suffering. He also commissioned us to love our neighbor and to work to alleviate the suffering and oppression in the world. Our faith is to be active in the world and not just a spiritual "experience". Sorry to you non-christians and non-theists, but when I look around and see who is carrying out works of mercy locally and in the world, it's mostly christians. I believe that if a person possesses the truth, it will emanate from him or her.

Sure, when you look around your tiny little world, I believe you. I do a ton of charity work and give a lot of money to charity, as do most of the other non-believers I know... and we don't bash anyone over the head with an ancient collection of just-so stories while we help.

Lastly, I have come to understand the atheist point of view on most matters.

"The atheist point of view" is a lack of belief in deities.

If I didn't believe in God, I would have the same views concerning faith, the bible and worldview.

Actually, a lot of us came to a lack of belief in god because of the Bible, not the other way around.

Unfortunately, I can't say I've made any friends here, but I think if we could meet in person that would happen. In this forum christians and atheists discuss their differences and not their similarities, so we don't have a rounded view of each other.

I think I remember you saying once that you only visit the Christianity section of the forum. We often do discuss our similarities in other sections.

The problem is that we discuss and re-discuss the same issues with no resolution because we can't claim any common ground. So sometimes I wonder if it's all a waste of time, but when I look back, though, I can say that it's been a benefit to me. My advice for searching christians, or anyone for that matter, is not to take anything in a forum as final, but to check it out for themselves using multiple sources, and not just one side of the issue.

Gawds, I hope that would be obvious.

As for me, I see myself as being a more enlightened christian, and will most likely be one for the rest of my life.

Well, at least you're no longer a creationist. That's something.

[Minimalist]

Perhaps in another 10 years you will learn even more?

[Chas]

---

Last week I was in the midst of pursuing a discussion in this forum concerning a loving God when I suddenly realized that I had argued the same points numerous times before, and that this discussion would end the same way as all the rest - in seeming futility. This made me begin to re-examine why I spend so much time here and why I had even begun in the first place. I decided to back off, take a breather and summarize in my mind what had transpired in my thinking and beliefs since I had joined the form on December 14, 2013. What I have discovered is there has been quite a change since that day. I found that it can be very scary to venture out of the comfortable world that you've come to accept and face new possibilities. My thought was that if my faith was real and defensible, it should stand up up to all the questions, and I wanted to face them head-on. As I found out, you folks here were only too happy to oblige me in that regard.

Here's some things that have changed since Dec 14, 2013:

I was a progressive creationist and I am now an evolutionist. I've acquired a greater appreciation for what science can teach us.

Although I was never a biblical literalist, I am now more convinced that the bible is true and inspired, but it was not written to be a scientific or historical textbook, and so it can't always be relied to be specifically accurate in that regard.

Early church fathers supported views of hell other than eternal torment, but because the catholic church embraced that view, it became the prevailing view. I believe that, although the bible does definitely teach of hell as a place of torment, I don't believe that it teaches that one's time there will be eternal.

I have come to believe that those who haven't been able to hear of Christ , but truly seek God will be with him.

---

I was against gay marriage and civil unions, but I now support civil unions, but not gay marriage. I don't think the government has any business in marriage. I have come to realize that we are not a christian nation, but a secular one. Because of that all citizens are deserving of equal treatment under the law. I still think that homosexuality is sinful, but I think a lot of things people do are sinful, and this doesn't effect whether or not I care for an individual.

---

I realize that we can't count on God to always directly intervene in our affairs. Jesus didn't tell us if we believe in him he will make sure our lives are without trial or suffering. He also commissioned us to love our neighbor and to work to alleviate the suffering and oppression in the world. Our faith is to be active in the world and not just a spiritual "experience". Sorry to you non-christians and non-theists, but when I look around and see who is carrying out works of mercy locally and in the world, it's mostly christians. I believe that if a person possesses the truth, it will emanate from him or her.

Lastly, I have come to understand the atheist point of view on most matters. If I didn't believe in God, I would have the same views concerning faith, the bible and worldview. Unfortunately, I can't say I've made any friends here, but I think if we could meet in person that would happen. In this forum christians and atheists discuss their differences and not their similarities, so we don't have a rounded view of each other. The problem is that we discuss and re-discuss the same issues with no resolution because we can't claim any common ground. So sometimes I wonder if it's all a waste of time, but when I look back, though, I can say that it's been a benefit to me. My advice for searching christians, or anyone for that matter, is not to take anything in a forum as final, but to check it out for themselves using multiple sources, and not just one side of the issue.

As for me, I see myself as being a more enlightened christian, and will most likely be one for the rest of my life.

---

I thank you for your thoughtfulness.
However, I think your view on marriage is a quibble over a word, a distinction without a difference.
What does it actually matter what word is used?

And homosexuality is a sin as much as disliking broccoli is a sin. It is not a choice.

[Pizza]

I was against gay marriage and civil unions, but I now support civil unions, but not gay marriage. I don't think the government has any business in marriage.

But government does have business in marriage, as religion doesn't have a monopoly on the term. What do you want gay couples to do while you fight the government over semantics?

Because arguments over semantics is all the anti-gay marriage crowd has got.

[Exian]

Talking from an evidence based angle- put yourself in the shoes of an outsider who is watching a movie of your entire life. Would he see anything that would lead him to conclude that God exists and you have a real relationship with it? Some of your conclusions are based on a narrative that exists solely in your mind.

But good on you for being open minded enough to confront these issues. I would not call you dishonest.

[Simon Moon]

This is about all that can be hoped for in these discussions.

Congratulations for coming to some rational views based on the use of, at least partially, reason and logic. Considering they are of the type that do not seem to have a negative effect on society, I commend you.

Your theistic views, however, do give cover to the more extreme and dangerous people that read the same 'holy' texts as you do and get much different information from it. Case in point: the Idaho Congresswoman that is okay with letting children die of neglect because she defends faith healing, found in the same texts as the one you get your beliefs from.

The reason I am fine debating and discussing the same issue with theists on this, and other sites, repeatedly, is not because I have any hope that I will change the views of the person involved in the debate. But there tend to be a lot of people sitting on the sidelines that may be starting to question their faith based beliefs, that will be swayed by the correct use of skepticism and logic.

[Jenny A]

What I have discovered is there has been quite a change since that day. I found that it can be very scary to venture out of the comfortable world that you've come to accept and face new possibilities.

Indeed it can be. If absolutely nothing else I admire the bravery of theists who are willing to venture out into this forum for serious discussions.

Here's some things that have changed since Dec 14, 2013:

I was a progressive creationist and I am now an evolutionist. I've acquired a greater appreciation for what science can teach us.

And proved you have the ability to learn, even if it contradicts your beliefs.

Although I was never a biblical literalist, I am now more convinced that the bible is true and inspired, but it was not written to be a scientific or historical textbook, and so it can't always be relied to be specifically accurate in that regard.

Certainly it is neither scientifically or historically accurate. What is it about it, that makes you think it was divinely inspired?

Early church fathers supported views of hell other than eternal torment, but because the catholic church embraced that view, it became the prevailing view. I believe that, although the bible does definitely teach of hell as a place of torment, I don't believe that it teaches that one's time there will be eternal.

Parts of it do support eternal hell. The Bible does tend to contradict itself. Nor is it particularly clear.

I have come to believe that those who haven't been able to hear of Christ , but truly seek God will be with him.

Kind thought, but what makes you think so? And why would those who seek be more deserving that those who don't.

I was against gay marriage and civil unions, but I now support civil unions, but not gay marriage. I don't think the government has any business in marriage. I have come to realize that we are not a christian nation, but a secular one. Because of that all citizens are deserving of equal treatment under the law. I still think that homosexuality is sinful, but I think a lot of things people do are sinful, and this doesn't effect whether or not I care for an individual.

Two separate topics. Sorry you still feel that way about gays. But regardless of how you feel, marriage is not a religious institution. It existed long before Christianity, exists in countries where Christianity has made few if any inroads, and frankly religion has nothing legitimate to say about it any who are not of the particular faith doing the saying.

I realize that we can't count on God to always directly intervene in our affairs. Jesus didn't tell us if we believe in him he will make sure our lives are without trial or suffering.

Doesn't appear to do so at all. In any case you theists often want diametrically opposed things, so no god could serve you all.

Sorry to you non-christians and non-theists, but when I look around and see who is carrying out works of mercy locally and in the world, it's mostly christians. I believe that if a person possesses the truth, it will emanate from him or her.

Actually, I see many secular charities and many of the people I know participating in them are atheists.

Lastly, I have come to understand the atheist point of view on most matters. If I didn't believe in God, I would have the same views concerning faith, the bible and worldview. Unfortunately, I can't say I've made any friends here, but I think if we could meet in person that would happen. In this forum christians and atheists discuss their differences and not their similarities, so we don't have a rounded view of each other. The problem is that we discuss and re-discuss the same issues with no resolution because we can't claim any common ground. So sometimes I wonder if it's all a waste of time, but when I look back, though, I can say that it's been a benefit to me.

If you've learned to value science and that the Bible is accurate you've learned a great deal.

My advice for searching christians, or anyone for that matter, is not to take anything in a forum as final, but to check it out for themselves using multiple sources, and not just one side of the issue.

That would be my advice to anyone anywhere.

As for me, I see myself as being a more enlightened christian, and will most likely be one for the rest of my life.

You are a Christian with greater secular understanding than you had before. Congratulations.

You are also civil. That is a very good thing. But I think you always were.