Why I'm Still a Christian

[robvalue]

That's right. The only things you should feel guilty about are things you have actually done of your own free will. And then the way to deal with that guilt is to own up to what you've done, try to apologize and make it right to the wronged parties, not to some irrelevant other characters, and then strive to be better in the future.

Being born and being told you've already fucked up so bad that you need to spend your whole life apologising is completely sickening. Being outside of religion, it's totally as clear as day what is going on. Imaginary shackles are being attached to people like yourself, and I wish I could get people to see that.

[psychoslice]

It's terrible Lek that Christianity has managed to convince you that you are doomed just for being a human.

Don Baker puts it best, "Religion breaks your leg then sells you a crutch."

Christianity works really hard to get people to despise themselves, to find them unworthy, dirty and in need of punishment because of some vague interaction between God and their ancestors.

The concept of "sin" is entirely a religious construct. It is not real. It's like an imaginary debt has been given to you when you are born, "You owe God 500,000 sin points." There is no debt, no one deserves to be punished just for being born. And any "God" which thinks so is not worthy of worship anyway. It has all the hallmarks of a scam, because that's what it is.

Whoever indoctrinated you into this religion is the one which put this "sin" idea into your head. I hope one day you can just cast it out. Because it's not real.

That was very well said, thanks.

[Whateverist]

At this point I think you should take the red pill and get to hell off this forum and go back to your familiar community or take the blue pill and ...

But before you reach for the blue pill and join us on the outside you might at least consider a third path. You could keep trying to improve your theological understanding. To do that, let go of the literal entirely and embrace the bible as metaphor and allegory. The garden of eden? - Something to do with the loss of non-sapient existence. Heaven and hell? - Figurative and transitory. Afterlife? - Probably not except as compost. It will obviously need a lot of work but you probably know the stories better than I. Maybe when Jesus said he was the way, maybe he meant personal transcendence is the way. You decide.

[robvalue]

Also, it's not even a clear cut issue whether Jesus existed at all, let alone did and said everything attributed to him. Just trying to establish Jesus "the man" is not a slam dunk.

The bible is just a book. It doesn't deserve special rights to be accepted without question.

[Whateverist]

Yep, allegory all the way down.

[Lek]

It's terrible Lek that Christianity has managed to convince you that you are doomed just for being a human.

Don Baker puts it best, "Religion breaks your leg then sells you a crutch."

Christianity works really hard to get people to despise themselves, to find them unworthy, dirty and in need of punishment because of some vague interaction between God and their ancestors.

The concept of "sin" is entirely a religious construct. It is not real. It's like an imaginary debt has been given to you when you are born, "You owe God 500,000 sin points." There is no debt, no one deserves to be punished just for being born. And any "God" which thinks so is not worthy of worship anyway. It has all the hallmarks of a scam, because that's what it is.

Whoever indoctrinated you into this religion is the one which put this "sin" idea into your head. I hope one day you can just cast it out. Because it's not real.

It just amazes me that you guys can look around the world and say that sin does not exist. Look around you and tell me we're all basically good. We're not punished for being born, we're punished for our actions. Are you saying that if we murder someone, we're not sinning? I don't think you are contending that nobody does anything immoral, but that our actions don't incur any debt to a god. Of course, if you don't believe in God, then you're not going to accept the concept of sin. You're idea of being good just to be good is a Godly concept, and is actually why we should lead moral lives. The problem is that we are born with a propensity to do bad things, which is demonstrated in the world, not only in the present time, but all through history. Is there anybody you know who has never done anything immoral? Have you made atonement to everyone you have wronged? If not, why do you not feel any guilt. If you feel no guilt over these things, then what is your mechanism for not repeating these actions? If I saw a situation in which non-theists were all living in love, peace and harmony your argument would be much more convincing to me, but I've never seen that yet.

[dyresand]

It just amazes me that you guys can look around the world and say that sin does not exist. Look around you and tell me we're all basically good. We're not punished for being born, we're punished for our actions. Are you saying that if we murder someone, we're not sinning? I don't think you are contending that nobody does anything immoral, but that our actions don't incur any debt to a god. Of course, if you don't believe in God, then you're not going to accept the concept of sin. You're idea of being good just to be good is a Godly concept, and is actually why we should lead moral lives. The problem is that we are born with a propensity to do bad things, which is demonstrated in the world, not only in the present time, but all through history. Is there anybody you know who has never done anything immoral? Have you made atonement to everyone you have wronged? If not, why do you not feel any guilt. If you feel no guilt over these things, then what is your mechanism for not repeating these actions? If I saw a situation in which non-theists were all living in love, peace and harmony your argument would be much more convincing to me, but I've never seen that yet.

Considering sin is such a broad thing and the fact christians purpose the idea of original sin because 2 people ate a apple and could start to think for themselves as a bad thing. So no sin doesn't exist because its to broad of thing and the fact being in a modern age as of now compared to then people are more moral now than back then in biblical days. So yeah jesus of the bible died for nothing because if god knew people were going to be this moral these days he wouldn't have chosen to die.

[Jenny A]

Okay, in your mind, humans are the only spiritual beings. What do you mean by spiritual? I think ritual, meditation, inner reflection, wonder, awe. You appear to think a sense of morality, i.e. knowing right from wrong.

---

In either case I think you are wrong about people being set apart from nature. Primates and other animals that interact socially do seem to have some sense of right and wrong, mercy, and justice. It's not as developed as ours, but the beginnings are there.

The same can be said of ritual. Anyone with a dog knows dogs love rituals.

Inner reflection is harder to assess but I'd guess that brighter animals may have the beginnings of that too.

It's evolution all over again.[/align]

---

No. None of that stuff is what I mean by man being a spiritual being. It's not in how we behave, like rituals or whatever, but in our essence. There is a part of our being, which we refer to as our soul, which is made in the image and likeness of God, which no other earthly creature possesses. You are familiar with christian doctrine and should already be aware of this Jenny - the flesh and the spirit.

I'm aware of the doctrine. I just don't see any evidence of the "essence" of which you speak, at least not if it's not possessed by all sentient life to some degree. And to the extent it exists at all, it resides in the flesh in the sense that a computer program resides in a computer. Apart from our very fleshy brain, there is no such thing.

And really other than how we behave, how would we know there was such a thing as this essence? An inner voice or feeling? Because the Bible speaks of one?

I heard the peal of thunder and was blinded by a flash of light, and then a voice from heaven revealed it to me. It happens to me all the time. Actually, I was thinking it over in the light of my new found acceptance of evolution and the idea came to me. In the light of scripture it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Okay, so I deserved that.

But really, my point is that it's just an idea you've added on to the Bible in order to deal with a real problem, i.e. evolution.

---

It just amazes me that you guys can look around the world and say that sin does not exist.

Sin and bad behavior are not the same thing. Sin is a religious construct. If you sin, you violate a god or gods, or something holy. Without god there is no sin.

Look around you and tell me we're all basically good.

Actually, most people appear to be basically good. Most people steal, lie for advantage, rape, murder, or even cheat others in business deals much. And when we do, our consciences often pummel us a little.

Do I think all of humanity is basically good? No. But civilization wouldn't work at all without a certain amount of good behavior and trust, and here it is still trundling along, not perfect but mostly working.

We're not punished for being born, we're punished for our actions. Are you saying that if we murder someone, we're not sinning? I don't think you are contending that nobody does anything immoral, but that our actions don't incur any debt to a god.

Exactly. But I'd go further. Few if any people do the kind of immoral actions that should result in the kind of punishment meted out by your god. Such punishment is so disproportionate that our Supreme Court would declare it cruel and unusual were it to be meted out by a human court. It would be a violation of international law.

Of course, if you don't believe in God, then you're not going to accept the concept of sin.

Bingo, we have a winner.

You're idea of being good just to be good is a Godly concept, and is actually why we should lead moral lives. The problem is that we are born with a propensity to do bad things, which is demonstrated in the world, not only in the present time, but all through history.

The more interesting question is why we ever do good things against our own self interest, because with or without god, we do do that.

Is there anybody you know who has never done anything immoral? Have you made atonement to everyone you have wronged? If not, why do you not feel any guilt. If you feel no guilt over these things, then what is your mechanism for not repeating these actions?

Guilt and moral behavior are a product of evolution and teaching. Parents who don't provide for their young, don't succeed in the next generation. People who behave badly are punished by society. Societies that don't do that don't last long. ---- I don't think about it this way in terms of my own moral behavior, but it is what I do. I feel guilt when I behave badly and good, when I behave well.

If I saw a situation in which non-theists were all living in love, peace and harmony your argument would be much more convincing to me, but I've never seen that yet.

Never seen a group of religious people doing this either. Your point?

[comet]

non-literal christian is not to bad at all. Literal christian isn't even "evil" all the time. but literal christian people telling us we are sinners? thats a sickness.

[The Grand Nudger]

Look around you and tell me we're all basically good.

That's been my impression, lol...yeah. Maybe not you...but I suppose that you'd know yourself better than I'd know you - if you say that you're not...I guess I'll just have to take your word for it.