Proof of God

[pocaracas]

Who made the quantum vacuum?
Who caused the quantum vacuum?

Note the "who" in those questions, poised perfectly to "poison the well" and add some "bias" to the question and the subsequent answer, as well.

[Harris]

[robvalue]

Did you answer my question about what I'm meant to actually do to "give thanks" to this creator? You clearly judge me for selfishly accepting the universe as it is, yet if you have no more idea than I do how to communicate with the creator, what is your point? Science has failed to answer this question completely, should I just be making random guesses?

If you have no suggestion at all, then I'm back where I already was, creator or no creator makes no practical difference.

My life is shit, by the way. Any creator which is interacting and has the power to help me is pretty powerless, or else is horrid and doesn't deserve worship.

---

You're also making a whole lot of assumptions about the way I live my life, when you know next to nothing about me.

And one cannot choose their beliefs. Telling me what I should believe is nonsensical.

[pocaracas]

"We are star stuff".
Electrons and other elementary particles, the sort that make up everything we know of... those are eternal, in a time-forward sense.

Going back in time, we hit the Big bang and we can't say...

“Anything that has a beginning has an end.” That means a thing that has a beginning cannot be eternal. This is the law of nature and no one can challenge that.

What if nothing has a beginning?
You ever thought of that?

It means the building blocks of the Universe have always been there. Like the building blocks of my body had been around for a long long while before they assembled into me.

You have a unique identity. There is no other you. You had a beginning and you will have an end. After your end, nature would not reassemble you again and you will never come back to this earth. End of the story.

Does that matter whether your elements were present in the eternal past or they will remain in the eternal future when there is no you? Do you have any reason to think that matter is eternal?

Me... I'm a high-level object made of of many low-level objects. Sadly, the way they assemble to make me is ephemeral.

And no, matter is not eternal... but energy is... apparently.
Like Lavoisier said "Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed".
Quantum vacuum does break this nice rule once in a while, though...

Harris Wrote:
Is “Natural” some law or force or is it some mystical phenomenon. How and why NATURAL is happening. What exactly NATURAL is? Do you have ANY scientific definition for it?

Pocaracas Wrote:
In this case, Natural phenomenon is mindless.
Can be studied, probed, measured... somehow...

You are trying to assimilate something, which is mindless as the foundation to develop your mindful arguments. Amusing!

Amusing how you cannot grasp the notion that highly complex high-level processing is what you call consciousness...
And it all goes on your brain.

errr.... I am aware of no beings apart from this universe. So sentient and non-sentient begins are part of the universe and have come about through a long, long chain of events.
If causality is a strict thing for all fields, even quantum, then it was going to be this way.... if not, then some randomness played a part.

Either way, I am not aware of any being apart from the Universe and I cannot fathom how could someone become aware of such beings... can you?

You are not aware of:

1. what life is
2. What is death
3. what is sense
4. what is consciousness
5. Why we sleep, (science does not have a clue.)
6. what is gravity,
7. Is the universe finite or infinite?

Yet you are conscious being living in the universe, you sense and feel, you sleep and wake, and you use gravity in every moment of your life.

1. who said I'm not aware of what life is?
2. Who said I'm not aware of what death is?
3. I know very well what a sensory input is.
4. I'm quite aware of what consciousness is.
5. I know why I sleep... if you don't know why you sleep, then maybe you should try sleep deprivation for a week or two.
6. Gravity is a force exerted on all matter and by all matter, proportional to the amount of matter and inversely proportional to the distance between the two pieces of matter.
7. The known universe is finite. The unknown universe could be many things and infinite is one of them... who knows?

You believe in all those unknown things without knowing them but you are reluctant to use your logic to realise an obvious fact that:

Why there is something rather than nothing?

Why do you was a "why" question?
Don't you think you're intentionally poisoning the well?

"Why" presupposes some sort of reasoning behind the fact. If the chain of events leading to there being matter was mindless, then no reason can be invoked and the "why" becomes moot...
I admit it's common for human language to ask a "why" question when they mean to ask a "how" question... is this what you're doing?
The "how" refers you back to the present state-of-the-art theory on this: quantum vacuum. Maybe it's wrong, maybe it needs a lot of tweaking to be right, maybe it needs to be completely scrapped and replaced by something far better... But, nowadays, it's the best we have.

[Harris]

[robvalue]

Why are you quoting the bible quran at me? I said if there is "a god", what difference does it make? Are you just switching in your God and hoping I won't notice?

[Pizza]

He's quoting the Quran.

[robvalue]

Oh! Yeah, you're right, whoops. Is Harris a muslim then? Or is he trying to put me off Islam?

More about "paying gratitude", but no mention of how I actually do that.

[paulpablo]

The important point here is if your mind does not exist in the physical realm and yet it effects your physical body then why you think God is unreal outside time and space.

There could be some debate about what is actually effecting reality, the brain vs the mind, but that debate is really besides the point because as I said it isn't just the fact that god would be outside of space and be non physical and effecting physical things it's the concept of him also being outside of time.

My mind isn't outside of time and space, it flows through time and my mind reacts with physical things within space like you said, if I drink a bottle of scotch my mind is effected.

God is outside of time outside of space and not effected by anything physical yet somehow manages to tell angels to tell a human about some statements he wants him to recite to his friends in order for them to write down.

And I don't necessarily think that god is unreal, the only claim I'm making is that I don't understand enough about time and space to make a positive judgement about that topic and using god as a solution to a problem I don't understand seems illogical to me.

The basics of that kind of logic is that there's a process you don't understand so all you have to do to solve that issue is imagine there's a being who can do anything, be anywhere, exist without physically existing, think without having any time to think, exist forever, and that's basically the problem solved.
It's basically a more extreme version of how people said aliens built pyramids because of a lack of understanding as to how they were built.

[robvalue]

Say I believe there is a god, and I'm thankful. That's enough right? Or do I have to go further and degrade myself by grovelling to him?

I could thank him by leading a good life, but I do try and do that regardless.