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If I were an Atheist
RE: If I were an Atheist
You are kidding, right?
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(May 9, 2015 at 11:01 am)Hatshepsut Wrote: I admit treating atheists en bloc is a deliberate oversimplification. I did it to avoid having a separate section to address each type of atheist, of which your post introduces "hard skeptics" and so on. I'll allow it's doubtful whether a state of mind actively presses a claim, although it does rest on implicit assumptions the mind makes about the world. Yet what's wrong with making a claim? If atheism (as philosophy rather than mental state) indeed makes no claims, then it's not very interesting.

You're right.  Atheism as such isn't very interesting, except to those with an interest one way or the other in religion.  I actually find religion more interesting than atheism.  Religion has been around a hell of a long time and pretty much all over the globe in one form or another.  So I have an anthropological interest in it, if nothing else.

However atheism best describes my own failure to believe in any of it.  I do periodically turn myself inside out trying to find common ground with your lot.

Fortunately the uninterestingness of atheism doesn't extend to defacto atheists themselves.  You might be surprised to learn how many other dimensions a person might have other than religious.  I find us, on the whole, an interesting group and I'm beginning to suspect you do to.  From my occasional visit to Christian sites I can completely understand why you're here.  Taking you in is the only Christian charitable thing to do.

(May 9, 2015 at 11:01 am)Hatshepsut Wrote: The other curious thing is that avoiding having your position scrutinized too closely helps you in a public debate.

You can mark down debates too as things which don't interest me.  It really isn't the case that I avoid taking a positive position against the existence of gods in order to avoid scrutiny.  The truth you seem not to want to face is that religion or theism simply isn't all that central in my life.  Nor do I think it should be.  You of course are free to disagree.
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(May 12, 2015 at 1:26 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: You are kidding, right?

What's amusing about Hatepshut is his apparently completely unconscioius hypocrisy: how sensitive he is to non-PC remarks shot across his bow, how eager he is to play the victim by claming they were meant to be direct hits, and how uncharitable he is in assuming that an analogy of behavior similar to his in a different context must constitute an attempt to label him as a racist. When we treat him like he treats us, he whines like no one's business. After all, it's just been our observation that people who act a certain way have other characteristics in common, and that kind of shorthand is apparently exactly what he's here to defend.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: If I were an Atheist
his? hmmm.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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RE: If I were an Atheist
Why argue or debate at all? How about just smug mockery .... theists are gonna hate us anyway, might as well have some fun at their expense Smile
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(May 12, 2015 at 2:53 am)whateverist Wrote: From my occasional visit to Christian sites I can completely understand why you're here.  Taking you in is the only Christian charitable thing to do...

There are good Christian informational sites. (Bible Gateway is fully searchable by topic and finds words occurring near each other without needing an exact string. It also has Hebrew, Greek, and several modern languages. It's free to use.) But worthwhile Christian forums are scarce. I'm not that heavy into Church anymore to begin with and won't go to one that pushes religiosity too far. Like what you said about atheists, it's only one part of living. There's the River Jordan and the dentist and so on...  Wink

(May 12, 2015 at 11:31 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: What's amusing about Hatepshut is his apparently completely unconscioius hypocrisy: how sensitive he is to non-PC remarks shot across his bow, how eager he is to play the victim by claming they were meant to be direct hits...

It's pretty damn obvious they were shots. I don't think I got hit, though. Or, if I did, you've "kissed it better" for me.  Wink

I might understand a little more, at the gut level, about PC and how it came into being than younger folks do. That's one benefit of having been around before PC was taken for granted. We had book titles like Man and His World. As if women didn't exist. It was salesmen, firemen, Congressmen, and the "neuter" pronoun was of course "he." I don't want to return to that world; PC did replace a bullshit system that reflected views (gender inequality) inconsistent both with our constitutional guarantees (14th Amendment equality before the law) and the changed social world where women being housewives and hubby being the breadwinner is no longer idealized.

But PC does bring its own foibles with it. One is the lost art of what was called "the stiff upper lip" (British) or "sucking it up" (USA). Today, people are easily offended and they let all their feelings hang out in public alongside all the dirty laundry. That as well replaced another bullshit system, where we expected things bottled up and swept under the carpet (meaning crimes like date rape and child beating were unconscionably protected behind walls). As a society, we swing from pillar to post, however. We invent a term, "microaggression," meaning that a wrong look, if the recipient suspects it's motivated by hidden racism, sexism, heterosexism, ageism, ..., then it must be called out and thrashed instantly. We dare not let the smallest transgression slip in our pursuit of perfectionism. When someone does appear to show sensitivity, we have no idea if it's genuine or forced. As PC and its sensitivity requirements get steadily more complex, the number of possible transgressions grows exponentially. This habit makes civility hard to maintain.

There is something Mormons call "moderation in all things" and Buddhists call "the middle way." Angel
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(May 12, 2015 at 4:46 pm)Hatshepsut Wrote: As PC and its sensitivity requirements get steadily more complex, the number of possible transgressions grows exponentially. This habit makes civility hard to maintain.

There is something Mormons call "moderation in all things" and Buddhists call "the middle way." Angel


Wait, are you or aren't you chafing at the indignities thrown your way?

I haven't followed much of what you've written but I've acquired a favorable impression. Must have been doing your whining elsewhere?
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(May 12, 2015 at 7:30 pm)whateverist Wrote: Wait, are you or aren't you chafing at the indignities thrown your way?

Mostly pointing out what I understand of PC, the language multiculturalism speaks in. Since it is regnant here, I may as well be Banghead

However, Mister Agenda's posts @me and the flock rushing in to back him up with one-liners show that multiculturalism has acquired the status of sacred belief among devotees, with lists of precepts that aren't questioned, that represent an absolute right which may as well have descended on stone tablets from the supreme being who doesn't exist. It's funny how we don't get away from God or gods that easily via our intellect; our heartstrings remain firmly connected.

Not that these beliefs are wrong, but they certainly don't derive from pure reason or from the laws of physics. They are shared preferences. Equality has figured in American ideal for a long time, and multiculturalism is just a fairly natural outgrowth of that. Social parity is certainly desirable if only for reasons of domestic tranquility and I support it. Whether the current political allocation will achieve it, keeping the restless grievance groups contented, is another question. Despite all our PC, America is more unequal now than it's ever been since 1925, if income and housing security are taken as the measures.

But it's fun to explore the emotions here, in a low-stakes environment. There are places where this conversation can be costly.  Wink
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(May 12, 2015 at 10:13 pm)Hatshepsut Wrote:
(May 12, 2015 at 7:30 pm)whateverist Wrote: Wait, are you or aren't you chafing at the indignities thrown your way?


Mister Agenda's posts @me

.. and the flock rushing in to back him up with one-liners show that multiculturalism has acquired the status of sacred belief among devotees
,

.. with lists of precepts that aren't questioned,

.. that represent an absolute right which may as well have descended on stone tablets from the supreme being

Dramatic much?





(May 12, 2015 at 10:13 pm)Hatshepsut Wrote: Not that these beliefs are wrong, but they certainly don't derive from pure reason or from the laws of physics.

Did any one suggest otherwise?




(May 12, 2015 at 10:13 pm)Hatshepsut Wrote: They are shared preferences. Equality has figured in American ideal for a long time, and multiculturalism is just a fairly natural outgrowth of that. Social parity is certainly desirable if only for reasons of domestic tranquility and I support it. Whether the current political allocation will achieve it, keeping the restless grievance groups contented, is another question. Despite all our PC, America is more unequal now than it's ever been since 1925, if income and housing security are taken as the measures.

I might argue with you but you don't seem to need any help.   Tongue
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RE: If I were an Atheist
(May 12, 2015 at 11:32 pm)whateverist Wrote: ...descended on stone tablets from the supreme being

Dramatic much?
[/quote]

I'm developing a flair for the wax of passion.

Re-reading, I'd rather take about half my posts down. They're overdone and could have been said with one third the words used. But no getting from omelette back to egg.
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