Racism, Gypsies, immigrants, problems & solutions

[thesummerqueen]

There was a purpose.

[Zenith]

First of all you're wrong about Hitler - The man believed in genetic perfection and skin colour/ethnicity was a variable - You only need to spend 15 minutes in stormfront to see how much gene matters, regardless of how smart or nice you are as a person.

Sorry about that.

I don't how how true what you wrote is. My girlfriend is 1/4 Gypsi, and as she likes to say "I'm only ethnically gypsi" (it's basically a code for "don't mix me in the same bag as those people - She is really racist against gypsies). Out of all social groups I think gypsies are the most hated in Portugal, much more than blacks, Indians and so on.

I can't tell with much precision how (unskilled) Romanians are treated in the Western Europe. I haven't lived in the West so far. I know that in UK there are political parties who dislike immigrants. I did hear Romanians feeling "unwelcomed" in the West, and the fact that they're sometimes confused with gypsies. Now the cases I know may depend from case to case.

Out of curiosity, are Romanians ethnically white? I'm asking this because most Romanians I see here are gypsi, but now that you tell me that I'm realizing you guys are probably eastern caucasians.

All Romanian ethnics are white caucasian. Just like Bulgarians, Russians, Hungarians.

I've had bad experiences with gipsies, but I try to not generalize - Though my prejudice still lingers when a gipsy approaches me on the street ("No I don't have any damn cigarettes!!!")

My prejudice lingers whenever a gypsy approaches me on the street and tries to sell me something - actually, insists. I don't know where he got that thing from, whether it's a coat, or a jacket, or some alcohol, but the thing that always works is to say "I don't have any money!"

[Zenith]

Racism is a societal and cultural problem.

The first step to solve it, though I doubt we'll ever be truly rid of it, is education and to stop people thinking in stereotypes.

I personally TRY to judge people as individuals, not by their religious/cultural/national identities. I don't always succeed, unfortunately.

I think racism is some extreme form of defensive mechanism. Someone sees a man who turns out to be a thief, he tries to be cautious. He sees another man who is a thief, from the same religion / culture / nationality, the same. If he happens to see and / hear about 10 people belonging to the same new (new to him) religion or culture or nationality, he starts to associate. Of course, there are exceptions, or perhaps say 40% of them turn out to be well behaving. But I think there's an inherent feeling of danger associated, so this "prejudice" gets out of the way once you get to know the individual (and the individual turns out to be ok).

The culture, unfortunately, does have an impact upon the people (I'm talking about groups, not specific individuals). It is the very environment that adds to their education. It might make the difference between, say, ~80% of the individuals that can be considered to be trustworthy and 4%.

And I believe racism cannot be fixed only by trying to educate the people into accepting a minority, but also into helping the minority - the one who's having an inferior culture - to rise to a higher level.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Wait, racists outside of Texas being discussed on AF? What the fuck, over?

[Dystopia]

I think racism is some extreme form of defensive mechanism. Someone sees a man who turns out to be a thief, he tries to be cautious. He sees another man who is a thief, from the same religion / culture / nationality, the same. If he happens to see and / hear about 10 people belonging to the same new (new to him) religion or culture or nationality, he starts to associate. Of course, there are exceptions, or perhaps say 40% of them turn out to be well behaving. But I think there's an inherent feeling of danger associated, so this "prejudice" gets out of the way once you get to know the individual (and the individual turns out to be ok).

I agree with this even if it's politically incorrect. It's the same as black people thinking all whites are racist because they had lots of bad experiences. It's a subconscious bias we develop and it's not necessarily bad

The culture, unfortunately, does have an impact upon the people (I'm talking about groups, not specific individuals). It is the very environment that adds to their education. It might make the difference between, say, ~80% of the individuals that can be considered to be trustworthy and 4%.

Yes

And I believe racism cannot be fixed only by trying to educate the people into accepting a minority, but also into helping the minority - the one who's having an inferior culture - to rise to a higher level.

This is some dangerous ground - I'm not going to comment because I'm not gipsy, but are you advocating erasing their culture? I'm not my girlfriend, but if I was her, I'd probably say "Yes, gipsy culture sucks"

Wait, racists outside of Texas being discussed on AF? What the fuck, over?

You need to come to Italy, Portugal or France to see how racist we can be. It's just a very subtle non noticeable racism, but it exists.

All Romanian ethnics are white caucasian. Just like Bulgarians, Russians, Hungarians.

Yeah it looks that way. I understand the misconception because lots of tourists think Portuguese people are similar to latinos but when they come here they're surprised to see we are mostly white, similarly to Italians and Spanish.

My prejudice lingers whenever a gypsy approaches me on the street and tries to sell me something - actually, insists. I don't know where he got that thing from, whether it's a coat, or a jacket, or some alcohol, but the thing that always works is to say "I don't have any money!"

I sometimes pass by some Gipsy women begging but I usually ignore her just like I do with any other homeless people, unless I can really spare a coin. In my case I smoke and quite frequently I smoke outside so they see me as a supplier for cigs - Bad luck for them, I always and tell them the pack is over

[Regina]

When the 'every man' has these views, or speaks about them that way, it's hard to change politicians minds about how to treat a group of people - they're catering to their voter base, after all.

And yes, we have those same "problems" in America.

The problem with the politicians and the citizens goes like this: uneducated / stupid people elect bad politicians, which do not do much to improve the education of the citizens, so future generations remain quite at the same level of IQ and education. So it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. You need someone (or some people) to push the country further, but that someone also needs to convince the uneducated / low IQ people to trust him. It is difficult.

Happening in the UK right now with UKIP. Anyone who votes those fascists in I want nothing to do with.

On-topic, I do have a bad experience with one Romanian family who I lived next door to last year. However, they were trash because they were noisy and trampy as individuals, not because they are from Romania. They weren't even gypsies. I think to judge a whole nationality or ethnic group based on a bad experience is a bit tasteless. I'll be honest though, I can see people frown upon gypsy culture, but then gypsy culture isn't exclusive to Romanians. I've had far worse experience with Irish gypsies than with Romanian gypsies personally (and I say that being part Irish myself).

[Thumpalumpacus]

Wait, racists outside of Texas being discussed on AF? What the fuck, over?

You need to come to Italy, Portugal or France to see how racist we can be. It's just a very subtle non noticeable racism, but it exists.

I know, I was being sarcastic. I lived in Spain for a year, and saw for myself the racism there.

[Dystopia]

The problem with the politicians and the citizens goes like this: uneducated / stupid people elect bad politicians, which do not do much to improve the education of the citizens, so future generations remain quite at the same level of IQ and education. So it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. You need someone (or some people) to push the country further, but that someone also needs to convince the uneducated / low IQ people to trust him. It is difficult.

Happening in the UK right now with UKIP. Anyone who votes those fascists in I want nothing to do with.

On-topic, I do have a bad experience with one Romanian family who I lived next door to last year. However, they were trash because they were noisy and trampy as individuals, not because they are from Romania. They weren't even gypsies. I think to judge a whole nationality or ethnic group based on a bad experience is a bit tasteless. I'll be honest though, I can see people frown upon gypsy culture, but then gypsy culture isn't exclusive to Romanians. I've had far worse experience with Irish gypsies than with Romanian gypsies personally (and I say that being part Irish myself).

As far as I know the only truly extremist party in the UK is the BNP (racist and neo-nazi), isn't the UKIP basically the only euro-skeptical party? Because that's a deciding factor for many people

[Zenith]

And I believe racism cannot be fixed only by trying to educate the people into accepting a minority, but also into helping the minority - the one who's having an inferior culture - to rise to a higher level.

This is some dangerous ground - I'm not going to comment because I'm not gipsy, but are you advocating erasing their culture? I'm not my girlfriend, but if I was her, I'd probably say "Yes, gipsy culture sucks"

I believe you misunderstood me. What do you understand of culture, specifically?

What I meant by culture is actually, well, mentalities. Think about it, people who lack education and are being treated as outsiders cannot quite develop a nice culture. And cultures change, in every country. There are many gypsies accustomed to theft, to scamming and fraudulence, violence, etc. Basically, if you moved all gypsies in nice apartment blocks in a nice neighborhood and all would have jobs, it is possible that only ~20% of them would strive for a better way. The rest will turn the apartment blocks into slums, there would be violence, people would not go to work, would continue to steal, would be drunkards, etc. Things like this did happen before, so just throwing money cannot solve the problem. Re-education is needed.

It is possible that for many adult gypsies it is very difficult to change (after having lived within a destructive environment and with very bad 'education' - basically, taught to steal). The children can be more easily educated, but their parents must somehow hold to the families for their children to be able to go to school (even, illiterate parents may see no need in their children going to school).

Wait, racists outside of Texas being discussed on AF? What the fuck, over?

You need to come to Italy, Portugal or France to see how racist we can be. It's just a very subtle non noticeable racism, but it exists.

Here it's worse, I believe, but only for the gypsies. We've got some number of arabs (muslims), hungarians, germans, etc. but these are all treated properly.

I know that here there are communities of gypsies living outside the cities (as outcasts, basically), in tents, with no electricity, no water (at taps), no education, just like the middle ages. But yes, they do live like this in other parts of Europe as well. Anyway, I'm sure politicians & mayors in Romania wouldn't be concerned if there were Romanian ethnics like this as well, but looking gypsy (i.e. black, but also the way of talking) does decrease the chances of getting a job. For jobs that require higher studies, looking / being gypsy doesn't count, because the gypsy can be assumed to have a proper (home) education and that he holds a good behavior.

I sometimes pass by some Gipsy women begging but I usually ignore her just like I do with any other homeless people, unless I can really spare a coin. In my case I smoke and quite frequently I smoke outside so they see me as a supplier for cigs - Bad luck for them, I always and tell them the pack is over

I'm sometimes feeling bad about this but... most of the time I go past a beggar or a homeless man, I avoid looking at him. I quite never spare any coin (a thought like, "it wouldn't help him much for the long run anyway..."). I sometimes wonder "what could have happened to him that he ended up this way?" and think about a distant future in which I desire to get involved in some association that helps homeless men or poor people. But I never do that. I always keep the intention but postpone it for a very distant future.

Also, I am quite reluctant to beggars. I know there are cases (at least here) where a guy or a woman dresses up in ragged cloths, goes to a bazaar or some place where there are people buying & selling, begging, and at the end of the day he / she goes home, dresses back normally, and goes shopping for things not quite critical for survival. As about children beggars, their parents are quite likely to send them to beg and when they get home they take their money and use the money to buy alcohol (for themselves) or something. In other words, I would feel better about dropping some coin if I knew I really give to someone in need.

[Zenith]

Happening in the UK right now with UKIP. Anyone who votes those fascists in I want nothing to do with.

Regarding UK, and to some extent the rest of the western Europe, I think there is a cause to it. As I've heard, native white British are less than half the total population living in UK. Of course, black people are not native of UK, they have immigrated into UK during the last centuries. It is possible that within this racism lies the fear / worry that the country which used to be made of British people, was built for them, and with a British culture and etc. becomes a country of Muslims (Arabs and North Africans), Eastern Europeans and who knows what. If you add to this the possibility (I don't know how it is actually) that the birth rate of British people is declining while the others are rising, they you may end up, say in 100 - 200 years with a UK that barely has any British in it left (and say, 90% of them to be of Islamic faith). That would mean that the British culture, their ethnic group, their values and etc. might be endangered.

In Eastern European countries, there are very few immigrants coming (so there's no worry of being swarmed by foreigners), but on the other side they have the problem that many of their own leave to the west. This causes a decline in the birthrate and inherent difficulties and imbalances (e.g. less and less youth able to work and more and more old people who can no longer work). On the other side, those holding to the "traditional values" and to bullshit theories like "a people is made of an ethnic group that share the same religion and the same culture and etc." find themselves with a country and a people which, according to that notion of people, is endangered by the West (the youth of the eastern countries embrace the western culture, they drop the eastern orthodox faith for atheism and agnosticism, they give up the traditions for the western trends, etc.)

I believe nationality is quite a bullshit (I mean, proud to be Romanian for the simple fact that you were born within some borders). But I believe many people need to have a national identity, and a cultural identity. So it is possible that this globalization thing was not thought out very well.