How Muslims believed earth was spherical long before anybody mentions it.

[Angrboda]

Yes, that's it! It's a global conspiracy to deny Mohammed the credit!

---

"We need not be troubled by the question, arising from the spherical shape of the world, how there can be a distinction of right and left within it, all parts being alike and all for ever in motion."

~ Aristotle, On the Heavens, circa. 350 BCE

[Whateverist]

Big whoop. Give the muslims some credit for some geometry in the dark ages. No problem. But to the extent that the vast majority of muslims live in poverty and count having their kids chant verses all day from the Koran as an education, the past accomplishments of Islam do little to inform our present day impressions of muslims.

[Smaug]

Realizing that the earth was spherical, they made comments regarding gravity being a pull towards earth's center. "Varahamihira(6th Century AD) had said "It is an experience of everyone that on any part of the earth, that the flames of the fire go up and the objects that were thrown up fall down." Varahamihira published when Mo the Hammed was 5. It looks to me that the Arabs stole more directly from India as much or more than they stole from the Greeks. This makes sense as it was ~800 years after Eratosthenes. If you are going to steal from some culture and call it your own, might as well steal from the most recent you have available.

These are very interesting things you're mentioning. It's a shame but I've never paid attention to ancient Hindu works in astronomy. A casual search on this topic indicates that Hindus knew well about Greek astronomical worls and used them in their own. Speaking of Arabs, your version makes sence since it's known that they had trade connections with India and exchanged knowledge, too. For example Arabic numbers originate from India if I remember correctly.

Arabic civilization as a whole was one of the leaders in science back then. Though there seem to be no well-known astronomical theories from back then Arabs preserved astronomy throughout dark ages. Also they donated much observational data. And I'm not speaking here of other things such as Algebra. Too bad so many of their descendants succumbed into barbarianism nowadays.

[JuliaL]

These are very interesting things you're mentioning. It's a shame but I've never paid attention to ancient Hindu works in astronomy. A casual search on this topic indicates that Hindus knew well about Greek astronomical worls and used them in their own. Speaking of Arabs, your version makes sence since it's known that they had trade connections with India and exchanged knowledge, too. For example Arabic numbers originate from India if I remember correctly.

I just ran across the Indian astronomer connection while looking for a way to counter the really goofy argument of AtlasS2, that Erastothenes didn't recognize a spherical earth and was measuring a circumference of the earth as a circle because nobody reported it as ball shaped (or some such nonsense.) Then trying to grab credit for his favorite desert warlord (but divinely inspired don't forget.)
I really am interested in seeing if he just disappears and I hope he doesn't. I find it horribly fascinating how theist "reasoning" works. They seem to throw up any bizarre argument and the ones that gain traction become dogma. I expect that effect is amplified in areas of the world where, when you say the right thing, 90% of the population is nodding and smiling and when you say the wrong thing 10% of the population is glaring darkly in your direction and fingering the edge of their neck striking knives. I expect that reduces open and honest discourse.

[GrandizerII]

These are very interesting things you're mentioning. It's a shame but I've never paid attention to ancient Hindu works in astronomy. A casual search on this topic indicates that Hindus knew well about Greek astronomical worls and used them in their own. Speaking of Arabs, your version makes sence since it's known that they had trade connections with India and exchanged knowledge, too. For example Arabic numbers originate from India if I remember correctly.

I just ran across the Indian astronomer connection while looking for a way to counter the really goofy argument of AtlasS2, that Erastothenes didn't recognize a spherical earth and was measuring a circumference of the earth as a circle because nobody reported it as ball shaped (or some such nonsense.)

It shows how ignorant the OP is regarding geometry and trigonometry. Had Eratosthenes thought the Earth was a coin (horizontally placed), he could not have been able to estimate its horizontal circumference according to how he did the calculations.

And nobody in their right mind ever thought the Earth was a vertically-placed coin with us along its circumference. It was too obvious even to the naked ancient eye that it wasn't.

[Angrboda]

It shows how ignorant the OP is regarding geometry and trigonometry. Had Eratosthenes thought the Earth was a coin (horizontally placed), he could not have been able to estimate its horizontal circumference according to how he did the calculations.

Below is how Erotosthenes did it. It's clear from the method that he was measuring a sphere, as you say.

[JuliaL]

And nobody in their right mind ever thought the Earth was a vertically-placed coin with us along its circumference. It was too obvious even to the naked ancient eye that it wasn't.

And this is glaringly obvious to everybody here except the OP who seems on the other hand utterly and stubbornly oblivious.
I'm much more interested in the underlying pressures and processes that form these two opposed positions rather than what I consider to have been settled fact for roughly 2300 years. What color is the sky in AtlasS2's universe?
It's like watching some sort of exotic bug. Colorful and pretty, but I don't really want to touch it or find it in my house.

[Smaug]

It would have been funny to see how flat-earthers explain all the physical phenomena related to geoidal figure of the Earth. For starters let them explain gravitation.

[WinterHold]

When somebody else discovers something (even if he was an ali baba living in the dessert), you shut up, swallow your nerd complex, and admit that he beat you to it.

Yet you are incapable of this. You are a raving fucking idiot if you think Muslims were the first to discover or widely accept the shape of the Earth. You have yet another problem in this regard, the Earth is actually not a sphere, but an oblate spheroid. Go try to dig that out of your fucking book. What's the matter? Allah didn't know this? Needed to dumb it down for the readers of the Quran? Or was he just in the business of being 'close enough'? Oh yeah, Muslims didn't make that discovery either.

This is the problem with you fundamentalist types (Muslim, Jew, or Christian); you just accept at face value the lies told to you and are happy to kick them down the road. We know better, which only makes you look like a lunatic. Keep your head in the sand to maintain your delusions if you wish, it's your choice. Just know that you're full of shit.

Hello sparta !

I couldn't find anything in your comment but insults, and واقفلي عالوحدة.
In other words, the Quran is not an astronomy or physics book to describe to you the details of how to do nuclear fission. Saying earth is spherical is enough.
God created you with a brain, so you go fetch the details of god's mighty creations.

jesus_wept

I think a better question to ask, since you're trying to make out this verse is in keeping with science and is accurate, is where and what is the sun's stopping point?

Or perhaps we could just let Muhammed tell us instead?

Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/59

It's no wonder you didn't want to open this can of worms and would like to save this topic for another time...

Matter in fact, science is the one that should be updated with these verses ; if humans did it earlier we would've acknowledged earth is spherical 1400 years ago.

Hadith is not a holly text, it's rather a "tale" claimed by somebody that Mohammed peace be upon him said, you can of course know that many things in it is false, weird. I only take my faith from the Quran.

Remember : ONLY TAKE YOUR FAITH FROM THE QURAN.

About the sun's resting point, that is at the black hole at the center of the galaxy, it's an astronomical fact now that it exists and that the sun would reach it after a certain amount of years.

Check my comment to "Irrational".

Alex K

I really don't know what you are on about. Of course he assumed that the earth is a ball, that's what the whole geometry of his measurement is based on.

The measurement of a circumference doesn't mean a sphere assumption; rather a "circle assumption" jumping in our heads. Ancients did know and acknowledged that earth was a circle, and that is viewing earth like a plate, or a coin. I referenced that in this topic with a link ; too (in one of my previous comments). Actually, you gotta treat a sphere as a 2D object to calculate that ; thus he probably viewed earth as a flat disk.

But nobody mentioned a sphere.

Is there supposed to be anything in there pertaining to the discussion at hand?

Yep. it is that earth is a container, thus having a hollow depth like a container.
In another verse, it refers that the container contains "weights" that would be spitted out someday.

Again, there's absolutely nothing in there pertaining to your claims.

How ? it's a direct reference that earth is filled with weights inside.

You are seriously claiming that the author is not simply talking about the Ptolemaian orbits of the sun and moon around the earth? Because of course that's what he's talking about, you can tell from the text treating the orbits of sun and moon as basically in the same category.

And by the way, about the sun reaching the moon business, it seems that the author thinks the position of the moon has something to do with when it's night, when it is completely independent of that (solar eclipses, duh). And that they even have to mention that night does not overtake day reveals a deep ignorance of how night and day come about in the first place. To me it reads like the author was dumb as shit, incompetent when it comes to astronomy. In any case, any scholar knowing about heliocentrism wouldn't have written it like that.

You are so desperate to see something in there that isn't there, that you have to ignore the obvious interpretation of these things and read something deeper into it in hindsight.

I'm sure.

How did you come up with the idea of a Ptolemaian model being suggested by the verse ? earth wasn't described as the center of the universe or the galaxy -hence ; nowhere else in the quran that was mentioned that earth is the center-.

About the night & day cycle, nope, I think the author was godly smart and see why.

If the sun should not reach the moon -which is true ; since no collision was ever meant to be in our time between the two-, rather ; it linked the day to the sun yet it didn't link the night to the moon, moreover all through the Quran-.

About the "night should not overtake the day", is another wrong translation from the source that I hope you would please excuse me for.

The verse in Arabic uses the word "sabeq = precedes " سابق، not "overtakes" آخذ.
يعني، ولا اليل سابق النهار، مش معناتها ولا الليل آخذ النهار.

The verse should be

( 40 ) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night precedes the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. Page 442.

The reason is simple. God described himself in the Quran as the light itself, that means when he created earth, there was actually light around earth during the creation, the first thing earth ever saw was the light of god, not the darkness of the cosmos.

Which takes you to the beginning of the cycle. It was day first on earth, then night, then day...etc.

If the Quran is a false book, I wouldn't find all these explanations wouldn't I ? to not believe, is the day somebody shuts me up with a straightforward contradiction, alex, or a fatal statement that has no possible outcome but a manmade book.

Brakeman

Thank you for commenting again when you became sober.
Between the ancients, saying there are "black holes that eat all forms of life and suck light & sound inside" would make them say the same stuff you said about Mohammed peace be upon him.

Believe or don't believe, that's a personal choice indeed. But beware not to be in the medieval Church's boots, as they refused actual factual science because simply "they didn't like it", and they didn't have satellites,, maybe you are taking the same stand now, just because you don't yet have a methodology to see god & because you simply "don't like it".

Rhythm

-and yet this is exactly what the expanding muslim empire did. Again, credit for the actual labor goes to proxies...apparently they (the empire) wanted it stolen but didn't want to (or couldn't) do all the data entry themselves...
(My money is on the latter. The works were undertaken, the proxies were compensated...so the desire existed...but why would a militarized state be good at translating documents - think about this practically. The empire did what it could, and outsourced what it couldn't yet still desired. In the grander scheme of their expansion they were a ruling minority who couldn't -help- but leverage both the labor and knowledge of others even if they tried not to. Business as usual and in no way a condemnation of their motives or achievements.)

You think I appointed myself a lawyer on behalf of the empire?

The empire did terrible stuff to you guys, starting from invading spain, to the Ottomans invading greek, to them using your children as "slaves" ; forming the famous janissary, which we all know, was no more than child slaves from Europe, converted & forced to fight for the Empire.

Did the empire commit acts of "science theft" ? maybe, I'm not their lawyer.

My whole point is about stealing what the Quran said, without giving credit to it as the source of the discovery that changed the mentality of the old world to adapt such idea.
That is, when it reached europe, any person practicing it would be burnt to crisp.
Later to be "stolen" just like all conquistadors do, and re-written like Dante's inferno in a latin context with some weird ass latin writer.
Were the muslim empire any different ? I don't think so. That's why it fell, actually.

That's why many Muslims hate me too. Nobody can get over their ego and retarded nationalism.

Neither are the claims of the quran...so who's counting, and why?

No, nobody made fun of the greeks, maybe they told the truth.
But we discovered earth to find that it has no actual "end of the world".
and dig the ground, to find oil not hades.

That's how the greek claims are proven false.

Why would anyone waste time convincing you of such a plainly ridiculous thing? No god taught a nomad any such, don't be silly. Your "nomad" gets it right when the greeks get it right, wrong when the greeks get it wrong, and for the same reasons in either case. The explanation for this, has nothing to do with djinn................or any single nomad. If it took djinn, and had to do with some rando wandering the desert...it would really be inexplicable, but it doesn't, so it isn't.. and gets plenty of mention in history (that is apparently bullshit...if you say so).

I'm not sure what you want out of this discussion...do you want to ackowledge the muslim contributions to history that our historical narrative acknowledges...or call history bullshit for not acknowledging that narrative while calling it bullshit yourself? Is your gripe, more accurately, that history doesn't remember what you want it to/what you've been told, about islam and it's contributions? If that's the case, tough luck buddy. Or, do you positively require some djinn in this narrative. You just won't believe that the early umma did -precisely what it did- and that the only explanation for what you see is both "magic" and "the great satan"?

Ah, I wasn't told anything, belief wise I'm a lone wolf, and usually search my own facts, not allowing "Dawkins" to spit athiestic weird stuff in my ear like a Djin (I like his hair though), neither a "Hamza" that wants to convince me that the ancient Muslim empire was star wars.

My argument is pretty simple. History doesn't refer to the Quran, that it mentioned this, despite the obvious, straightforward verses.

MrNoMorePropaganda

Thanks for your response AtlasS2, I appreciate it. I like to think that defy the majority myself. First, allow me to apologise for the actions of my country in helping to mess up the world. If I was old enough at the time I would have attended those anti-Iraq War protests. Even today, with the country having to cut back on spending David Cameron is still talking about going to war.

Turns out I had you all wrong, and I'm sorry! Hamza loves to lie to people and keep people on puppet strings so I'm so pleased that you ignore him. It's so hard to find a believer who also takes issue with what he says (mainly because they don't educate themselves enough to know that he's wrong). These converts, such as Hamza, love to beg people for money. They go on holiday to an exotic place and claim they are going on a 'Dawah Trip' just so they can get their lackeys, as opposed to themselves, to pay for it. They will never be able to hold a proper job.

You are welcome, friend Thank you too for addressing Cameron's hypocrisy, but you should know too that he has many "Muslim boyfriends" and allies, who actually invite him to fight on their behalf.

The invasion of Iraq was actually blessed by many Muslims, especially Shia Muslims, most arab countries allowed the States and Britain to bombard the shit out of Iraqies from inside their lands (Turkey, all gulf countries, Iran ...etc) opened their borders for that invasion, and didn't give a shit about the amount of civilians pulverized.
I remember too, how many Muslims cited (more viciously than Cameron or even Bush) that Iraq has WMDs. Nobody cared.
It's not you who should apologize, friend, but Muslims are the first to apologize for what happened in Iraq.

About Hamza, I don't know much about the guy, though I ignore this type because they are liars. I can discuss why I think that if you care, but believe it or not, I think type is destructive to Islam & the Quran more than any Crusader or nuclear weapon. The worst type of Muslims, are those who try to fetch cash out of the faith.

The Quran says about them :

Aal-Imran (verse 77 ) Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a small price will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment.

I wonder if Hamza & his likes read the above. But of course they would hide the Quranic verses and go to Hadith, since it allows them to do whatever they wanna do.

The only people I see promoting your religion in the West are those funded, at least in part, by Saudi Arabia. To me this is really troubling. Saudi Arabia is a nasty country and they are trying to export their cultural hegemony by building Mosques and paying for Imams all over the world. It would be nice to see some people who aren’t Salafist/Wahhabi attempting to make a positive case for their religion. I wouldn’t go near Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab with a barge pole, so to speak, because, if I’m not mistaken, he encouraged the destruction of many historic buildings.

After all, there aren’t just Sunnis, so the others need to speak up. The U.K. Mosque directory informs me that there are lots of Shia Mosques but I only see people promoting the ideas of Mr. Wahhab on the streets (because aren't Salafists basically Wahhabis who refuse to acknowledge Mr. Wahhab as their inspiration?) , though the does seem to be the odd Ahmadiyya too (I think) but it's extremely rare to find anyone who isn't promoting Mr. Wahhab's ideas. Presumably, there are some Ibadis too – and maybe when I have some time I’ll investigate the Ibadis in more detail since they often get ignored. I’m curious about them mainly because they predate Sunni/Shia and have their own separate set of Hadith.

Sadly. Salafies/Wahabbies are the sects which advocate for the mentality of Al-Qaeda & ISIS, along with their infinite support for blood spilling, and their shameful stands during the events of Charlie Hebdo, 9/11 & the Denmark cartoons just proves their reality. I hate Cameron because of that, is he taking bribes to allow this amount of Salafies in ?? Like Tony, I think he is.
Mr.Wahhab -just as a sad side note-, demolished the house that Mohammed peace be upon him spent his childhood in the western province of SA.

I used to pray my friday at local mosques, if the Imam is a salafi, you will hear all kinds of insults against Christians & Jews at the end of the prayer, including their infamous "doa'a that I shall never forget" :
اللهم عليك باليهود والنصارى،
اللهم احصهم عدداً، واقتلهم بددا، ولا نغادر منهم احداً
Translation (God, take care of the Jews and christians, god, count them up, god, kill them one by one, god, don't leave any of them alive).

But at the end of the day, that Imam goes to Cameron asking for visa, along with 20,000 pounds as a side bribe, smiling to the people of England I dare them to translate their "doa'a" to the crowd.

Which, of course, brings me to my main problem with the Hadith: Who has the right Hadith? Is it Ibadi, Sunni or Shia? Just because the Sunnis are the most popular doesn’t make their Hadith any more true that the Ibadis and Shia collections. Even if 100% of believers thought the Sunni Hadith were the correct ones they could still be wrong.

My opinion about it, is that it always came down to the sect's choice of teller : as for every Hadith there's a set of tellers, each sect picks up a number of "trusted tellers". So it's impossible to determine what is right and what is wrong.

I personally, ignore all of it. Didn't god descend the Quran on Mohammed peace be upon him ? then my guess is that god doesn't play games : the Quran is enough for me to be a perfect follower. Treating the Hadith as a secondary "holly book" is actually mocking god, and telling him "mmmm your book isn't obvious so we are going to see what others say".

Then instead of reading about god, mentioning a spherical earth, you end up reading about red camels "Literally".

I treat the hadith as a set of books, containing ancient tales. To validate a Hadith, I would test it against the Quran.

The disaster is, I found huge amounts, that defies the Quran, removing its verses to replace them with other things.

Firstly, in regard to Google Translate, it's not ideal and I regretted not elaborating on why I try and avoid Google Translate. A computer is no substitute for a Human and this article, A Warning From History For The Google Translate Generation, warns about young people not having proper language skills. It explains that machines do not have the ability to, and I quote, "consider the cultural context that gives each word its meaning" and mentions the Bible and the Quran in particular.

In regard to that (Greek) map you provided. I’ve actually seen it before. In my opinion, and maybe I’m misconstruing here, all it’s showing that the continents, i.e. the landmass, is coin shaped but crucially it’s not saying that the Earth is flat. You can have a coin shaped mass on a round Earth. This is simply how the Greeks thought the continents were shaped. In fact, nowhere in the article is the word “flat” mentioned. You’ll note that the landmasses are surrounded by ocean and not "the edge of the Earth" - this is simply because the Greek didn't explore that far and you'll also note how much of Europe is actually missing (e.g. British Isles, Scandinavia, Faeroe Islands).

Ah, it was just a validation that I'm not lying (since some members questioned the source..translating it manually would be nice but I really don't have the time and my profession is so different ; and sadly Muslim scholars -like hamza- who claim this is their profession, do nothing about it. Muslim contribution to the translation movement in this era is just pathetic-.

But to elaborate, here's another source that mentions it with details :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

The Flat Earth model is an archaic belief that the Earth's shape is a plane or disk. Many ancient cultures have had conceptions of a flat Earth, including Greece until the classical period, the Bronze Age and Iron Age civilizations of the Near East until the Hellenistic period, India until the Gupta period (early centuries AD) and China until the 17th century. It was also typically held in the aboriginal cultures of the Americas, and a flat Earth domed by the firmament in the shape of an inverted bowl is common in pre-scientific societies.[1]

The paradigm of a spherical Earth appeared in Greek philosophy with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most Pre-Socratics retained the flat Earth model. Aristotle accepted the spherical shape of the Earth on empirical grounds around 330 BC, and knowledge of the spherical Earth gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world from then on.[2][3][4][5]

The major belief was actually in the flat earth model, despite the attempts of fine, genius scientists and scholars from Greece to change that mentality.

I believe the Quran changed it with that verse ; since the whole Muslim empire via its scholars, acknowledged that fact and wrote about it (blindly just from the Quran).

In terms of the Greek language, I think the reason the New Testament was written in Greek (and not the language Jesus spoke, Aramaic), is because the writers wanted their message to spread. Back then, right up to the days of Muhammad, I think it’s safe to assume, Greek was the language of trade. Greek was similar to English today. Hence, it made sense to learn the Greek language. Sure, Latin was important, I’ll accept that, but not until later when Greek was on its way out because of the decline of the Eastern Roman Empire.

But I have no doubt that the Romans, both Eastern and Western, were tyrannical. I’m tempted to compare them to the Mughal rulers of India but I know such a comparison is unhelpful. What I will say, however, is that I believe early Christians had it much worse than the Arabs, unless of course Arabs were also slaughtered mindlessly and any survivors fed to lions for the amusement of a crowd.

Probably it was. Since the levant was mainly under Roman control, and that is where the Mecca traders usually traveled to do their business.

Brutality wise, yes Rome was disgusting, especially the western Roman empire, even long before Christianity they treated Europeans like slaves, what they did to the goths was enough, no wonder everybody invaded them and wanted a piece of them.
The eastern branch though was less extreme than the western part, but still it was tyrannical. My heart does indeed goes to these early christians who were thrown in the arena to taste bitter death.

This actually brings me to another point. In the Quran it appears that Allah created Christianity by accident. Why would Allah make it appear as if Jesus was crucified knowing that it would create a new religion, a religion which would become the largest religion? This seems odd to me.
[url= http://www.quranx.com/4.157]Quran 4:157[/url] says this: “That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“

What I believe, is that God didn't make anything by mistake : it was what the people always wanted though, they always wanted a fairy tale in which a god in it would have a son, and that they would be a part of that family, that they witnessed the honor of being his companions.

The Romans did the crucifixion because they were tyrants, while the crowd believed in the theory of Jesus being son of god because -just like the Muslims of today- they don't like the real faith : probably wanted "the price", either the red camels or the promises of heaven. Lots of people would hate a faith where god tells you in : you are responsible for all your actions, you are equal to everybody, even the prophet who told you about the faith is another man like you.

Many just hate that concept. Including many Muslims. With that, Islam was forged once again to become "Christianity", as with Judaism before it.

I might not know about the feelings of an Arab, but believe me, I know about stereotypes from Hollywood movies. Part of my family is from Italy, and I remember that at school I was accused of being in the Mafia. Most people weren’t as stupid as to accuse me of that but I can appreciate how it must feel to be on the receiving end of stereotypes. Fortunately, I can speak English without any trouble - otherwise my life would be a whole lot worse.

I am actually beginning to have a real appreciation for Arab cuisine, by the way. From what I’ve tasted, it’s good and I feel compelled to by a recipe book and make my own Tagine and Falafels. Please don’t think I hate Arabs. I am deeply saddened when I hear the story of Omar Mukhtar, for example.

It never stopped me from keeping on watching them, especially after seeing similar stereotyping spitted against other races.

Lol the godfather eh ? ^_^ I loved that movie, but usually cared about the family side of it, I cried like a little girl at the end of third sequel, now Al pacino just looks cheap compared to his role in the godfather movies. >< best acting he ever did. I wish if time came back to that era.. two of the earliest actors I ever knew were Al Pacino & Robert di niro.

Falafel is pretty easy to make though, but watch out from the amount of oil in them ! But glad to know you enjoy arab food ^^ I advice you to try falafel, hommos & some fooll with olive oil. This is a typical arab breakfast actually I'm sure you won't regret it
http://www.food.com/recipe/fooll-mudamme...1587-18236

I appreciate that you looked through the stereotyping and yes, Omar's story is just a sad one.

I agree; Quran 22:39 says this: “To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-"

But I have a problem with the verse. What it’s saying is that you should fight when Allah is unable or unwilling to protect you or does not want to stop the aggressors. Surely, Allah should defend those amongst the Ummah who have been wronged? It would be a perfect sign that the religion is the truth. I am sure Omar Mukhtar would have appreciated Allah's help against the Italians. It wasn't until millions of deaths later, after World War Two had ended, that Libya became independent. Is this right? I think Allah should have protected Omar much better than he did.

This point you mentioned, is what drove most Jihadists crazy ; leading them to the ISIS-like attitude.

Well, it all comes back and returns to god's pov in the Quran. Life is not an eternal battle between good and evil ; actually it's no more but a trial & a test. Actually more weirdly, the Quran directly stated that god created everything ; thus he also created evil.
Thus, it won't differ if Muslims won or lost ; on a personal level I mean. It's not a battle ; it's a test of your faith.

Though if you were attacked, and you adopted god as an ally, then you should take a huge leap of faith & blindly fight under the laws he gave without paying attention to what tacticians might say. For example, "the goal justifies the method" is a forbidden concept if you go in Jihad, "good offense is a good defense" is also forbidden if nobody attacked you you cannot attack them it's not defense but a huge sin ,killing prisoners is forbidden too, using painful methods such as intentional terrorism is also forbidden.

Eventually when the person does take this leap of faith, he/she would reach a level of not even seeking victory, yet seeking to avoid god's questioning in the after life for not doing the right thing. Any pain is just another gift that you would be rewarded for. I'm almost certain, that Omar didn't see his death as a defeat, rather as a final gift from god.

Eventually, victory did come from allah, yet it came from unexpected creations of god : that is the humans who joined the allies in WW2. Mosoliny was hanged for his crimes, just like he hanged omar al mokhtar. And god didn't forget his follower, he simply brought victory from another source ; now would Muslims get over their nationalistic ego and acknowledge it ? acknowledge that even atheists, christians, jews, non-believers are also creations of god , just like them ?

To me, god via the quran, strips you out of ego, strips you out of seeking victories and claiming them for yourself. How many times did the Umma won by the favor of god, yet to come back and declare that there victories are due to their own personal super strength ? Impaling their enemies like the ottomans did, enslaving their women & children like a property, then take the Quran and throw it in the next garbage after victory, knowing that god prohibited their foul actions after victory ?

For a muslim, the real victory, is when other humans leave them to practice their faith without killing them. And for that, god did give Libya its victory.

This is exactly like the Christians and, by the way, the Bible can be read as song too if people desire, Psalms in particular because that chapter contains actual songs. However, I shouldn’t be comparing the Quran and the Bible because they are so different and the Bible is so much longer than the Quran so it’s not really a fair comparison.

My family, both from England and Italy, comes from a protestant background (about 2% of Italians are Protestant I think), so when I go to visit family in Italy I hear all latest conspiracy theories about the Catholic Church. I’ve heard the Catholic Church actually doesn’t want people to read the Bible, and it is true that before the Bible was translated into languages other than Latin, the commoners couldn’t read it – because only rich people and clergy could speak Latin. My thoughts are that the Quran is the same. People expect you to just accept it and not read it for yourself. I think this can be said for all religious texts.

The video was interesting, by the way, and I’d love to know what’s inside of the Kaaba of Mecca. The structure has always fascinated me. In the era that we live in, with space travel becoming more prevalent, I’m sure the scholars will need to think deeply about prayer directions. How is somebody on the dark side of Earth’s moon, for example, supposed to do Salat and fast? They can’t pray towards Mecca and I have to doubt fasting will be awkward too – but that’s a topic for another time maybe.

Reading the book from the source means that the priests and Imams have just lost their jobs. Which is something they never want to happen. I believe your family is reporting a fact rather than a conspiracy ^^

Yep, modern Muslims are so similar to medieval Christians actually you even detect "different catholic-like muslim churches" appearing, sunna has one, Shia has one too.
Ah, it's probably empty ; some people went inside, I think they also clean it from time to time, but just like the Catholic Church, things are preferred to stay a secret. But many speak about its interior, and many went inside and reported that it's totally empty.

About the prayer from space, I guess if I was on the moon or something, I will pray to the direction of earth.

Mmmm but I need to think more about that..some other time perhaps

Cato

Hello cato, again.
Please Cato, eat some Shitaki mushrooms.

JuliaL

What an odd argument, that everyone (ancients included) recognize that the earth is round, but nobody until Mohammed specifically connected round to spherical?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of...stic_world

I already replied that earlier, and this article has it all :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

It wasn't the model mostly adapted, neither was it even famous.
The Quran though, in two lines , made it a fact that all the Muslim scholars didn't deny or even cross.

So a guy who died 20 years before big Mo was born wrote about the earth being spherical, yet a book that Mo dictated, (presumably during his lifetime) later transcribed, which (with some artful choices of translation) can be sort of assumed to say that the earth was a ball (if you squint?)

There are probably people in my own city who don't know that the earth is a sphere, and probably always have been. So what? The scholars who publish first (e.g. Aryabhata vs Mohammed) get the glory.

Well, denying that would mean I deny the contributions of this genius scholar to science, along with all the other genius greek scholars too.

The point julial, is that a book widely called by non-believers as a book of fairy tales, delivered this fact and changed the major mentality of the ancient world which viewed earth as a coin.

My point is that, give me one society that viewed earth as a sphere ; yet as you would not find any (and wikipedia told you that in the link I provided), god made showed humanity and taught the reality via the quran, and finally this model wasn't another "joke" or something that people would ignore and forget : IT BECAME A RELIGIOUS FACT.

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Guys, I took 4 hours to write this "literally". I will comment to the rest but after a tiny while, so please don't think I'm ignoring you or treating you like crap !
I appreciate your comments & contributions.

[GrandizerII]

And nobody in their right mind ever thought the Earth was a vertically-placed coin with us along its circumference. It was too obvious even to the naked ancient eye that it wasn't.

And this is glaringly obvious to everybody here except the OP who seems on the other hand utterly and stubbornly oblivious.
I'm much more interested in the underlying pressures and processes that form these two opposed positions rather than what I consider to have been settled fact for roughly 2300 years. What color is the sky in AtlasS2's universe?
It's like watching some sort of exotic bug. Colorful and pretty, but I don't really want to touch it or find it in my house.

You know, that's how I'm going to see him from now on. I'm glad I didn't waste time responding to his whole last post to me.