Health Care bill passed

[A Theist]

Hatred and distrust of Socialism/ communism is an irrational set of blinkers Americans wore, and are having a hard job dispelling. Raping your own mother for profit has always been the American way, it's hard for them to see reason.

" Hatred and distrust of Socialism/ communism is an irrational set of blinkers Americans wore,"...Americans are fiercely independent. We would rather make our own mistakes than to have our government make them for us. "Capitalism doesn't attempt to change people, or force changes on people"...Tiberius for president.

[fr0d0]

...Americans are fiercely independent. We would rather make our own mistakes than to have our government make them for us.

Say it with me : "we're all individuals"

[Violet]

What have Americans got against socialism?
Its written in almost the same vitriolic way that paedophiles are in england why?
Socialism when done right is a great boon to society at large.
So why the hate guys.

Because to the Republican right, and, alas, to a lot of people here, socialism=Those Goddamn Soviets.

"Those Goddamn Soviets" have souls too!

The hate only comes from people not understanding socialism (and buying into a ton of repugnant bullshit (mostly anti-chinese or anti-russian) propaganda)

And I just swallowed a piece of gum just now, making me feel special indeed. Relevant? No. Makes me feel special? Yus -.-

[Rev. Rye]

What have Americans got against socialism?
Its written in almost the same vitriolic way that paedophiles are in england why?
Socialism when done right is a great boon to society at large.
So why the hate guys.

Because to the Republican right, and, alas, to a lot of people here, socialism=Those Goddamn Soviets.

"Those Goddamn Soviets" have souls too!

The hate only comes from people not understanding socialism (and buying into a ton of repugnant bullshit (mostly anti-chinese or anti-russian) propaganda)

And I just swallowed a piece of gum just now, making me feel special indeed. Relevant? No. Makes me feel special? Yus -.-

My point exactly.

[downbeatplumb]

Capitalism doesn't attempt to change people, or force changes on people. It is a naturalistic model of how we think and what we expect (work -> reward). There is no direct line leading from capitalism to "oppression and death". There is a direct line leading from socialism and communism to oppression and death.

People don't like the be changed. Socialism and communism work by oppressing people and taking what they earn, and when people complain, they get killed by the "collective" for not going along with what is "best" for society. Capitalism gives to people what they deserve based on what they do and what they contribute to society.

Where is the direct line from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

to oppression and death?

Nowhere thats where.

Socialism is about society taking responsibilty for others within the society.

It has been missappropraited in the past thats true, but the concept itself is the anti thesis of repression.

Russia replaced one tzar one by another name, they chose the idea of socialism to gain power but didnt actualy install a properly socialist system, ditto in china and the khymer rouge were about as socialist as the scientologists are christian.

I personnally favour a mix of socialism and capiatlism.

Socialism for the basics Health, policing,gas, electric, water, sewage, bus and rail services etc and capitalism for less vital stuff.

I know this goes against the Gordeon Gekko 'greed is good' mantra that underpins capitalism, which probably does work in big cities but out here in the sticks it strands old people with bus passes because their bus bus route is 'uneconomic' despite being full of pensioners every day.

Capitalism is about money socialism is about people.

[Tiberius]

Where is the direct line from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

to oppression and death?

Nowhere thats where.

I beg to differ. Socialism involves the dividing of the wealth of the country more or less equally between the people of the country. The idea is that if workers contribute to the success of the company, they should see an equal division of profit to the workers. Socialism aims to lower the boundaries between classes (which I'm skeptical exist anyway but that's another story). The only way of doing this in a world where people do have "greed" as a common human nature is by the government controlling people. Of course, once the government starts controlling people, there will be people in the government who use this to their advantage, as we've seen with all socialist countries to date.

You may claim it has been "misappropriated" in the past, but it says a lot about an ideology if:
(a) all instances of it in the past have led to death and oppression.
(b) it seemingly cannot be "appropriated" properly at all.

Socialism is about society taking responsibilty for others within the society.

No, that's what happens naturally. Socialism is born out of desire for the poor not to be poor, yet not wanting to actually do any work. Capitalism lets the poor become rich, if they work hard, have ideas, etc, etc. Socialism is the ideal way for slackers to live in a society whilst not contributing anything to society.

It has been missappropraited in the past thats true, but the concept itself is the anti thesis of repression.

Russia replaced one tzar one by another name, they chose the idea of socialism to gain power but didnt actualy install a properly socialist system, ditto in china and the khymer rouge were about as socialist as the scientologists are christian.

As with the above; it says a great deal about socialism when it cannot be implemented properly at all, and when it is attempted, it leads to death and oppression. Socialism is too idealistic to work; it depends on humans having traits that simply don't exist, and people wanting to work when they do not have to. Capitalism provides the incentive to work, as well as a fair system for distributing the fruits of our labours.

I personnally favour a mix of socialism and capiatlism.

Sounds ghastly.

Socialism for the basics Health, policing,gas, electric, water, sewage, bus and rail services etc and capitalism for less vital stuff.

I'm glad you aren't our chancellor. How exactly do you plan to pay for this massive public service incrementation? Taxes sure would be high in socialism...

Private industry has a history of doing a better job than government programs. The reason is simple; for the government, it is a held "duty" to perform well in the public program. In business, it is a necessity to provide a good service, or lose customers to another. When the government has the monopoly, they have nothing to worry about (since by law it would be illegal for anyone else to create a business like theirs), and so they don't have to provide a good service at all. They get their funds from taxes, which again, are things that are illegal not to pay. A government in socialism has a win-win scenario. They cannot lose, and they will exploit that to their own means.

I know this goes against the Gordeon Gekko 'greed is good' mantra that underpins capitalism, which probably does work in big cities but out here in the sticks it strands old people with bus passes because their bus bus route is 'uneconomic' despite being full of pensioners every day.

Greed isn't good. Greed is a natural part of human life. To that end, a system that most conforms with human nature is one that will work best, since it involves the least amount of changes. We don't like stealing; we have a nasty feeling inside when someone steals from us. We know what we deserve from doing certain work, and this is what capitalism allows for the market to operate. If a worker doesn't get paid well, they leave and find a better job (putting the company at risk if more workers do the same). It is beneficial for the company to look after its workers.

Capitalism is about money socialism is about people.

One entirely misrepresents capitalism is one thinks it is about money. Capitalism has nothing to do with money. Capitalism is a system of favouring the people who contribute to society more than the people who don't, and placing more favour on the people who contribute more (i.e. the people who create jobs). Whether that favour is shown through money or some other societal gain is irrelevant. The system works nonetheless.

Socialism is about people in as much as it seeks to discriminate against the people who do the work, and favour the people who do not. No socialist has ever managed to come up with one reason why I should even bother to work in socialism, and I offer the challenge to them every time I meet them. If you'd like to tell me what incentive I could possibly have for working in a world that favours the people who do not work, please do so.

[LEDO]

The reason why Americans hate socialism and love Reagan is something known as "rugged individualism." The idea is that our founding fathers were all this way, so should we be. Of course they had free land for squatters, slave labor, and a near monoply on the world's biggest cash crop. How tough was that? They hold true to 18th century ideology and economics because it worked for them. We never hand the bejesus bombed out of us, nor had to ever rely on the government or any other nation to bail our asses out of anything. Sure we defaulted on loans to England to build our railroads etc. etc., but none of that stuff is in our history books. Horrible things such as the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny are part of our psyche as good things. They have altered our history. The Civil War was fought over tarrifs and had nothing to do with slavery. We bought Florida from Spain, we didn't steal it. The Native Americans were a bunch of naked savages that ran around scalping each other, they should be thankful for our white Jesus. Our history books were rewritten during the Red Scare era of the 1950s to combat evil communism, both at home and abroard. Any attempt to make them truthful is known as "revisionism." You can hear the hillbillies say, "That wasn't our history when I was growing up." And that is why we are a bunch of sorry assholes.

[A Theist]

The reason why Americans hate socialism and love Reagan is something known as "rugged individualism." The idea is that our founding fathers were all this way, so should we be. Of course they had free land for squatters, slave labor, and a near monoply on the world's biggest cash crop. How tough was that? They hold true to 18th century ideology and economics because it worked for them. We never hand the bejesus bombed out of us, nor had to ever rely on the government or any other nation to bail our asses out of anything. Sure we defaulted on loans to England to build our railroads etc. etc., but none of that stuff is in our history books. Horrible things such as the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny are part of our psyche as good things. They have altered our history. The Civil War was fought over tarrifs and had nothing to do with slavery. We bought Florida from Spain, we didn't steal it. The Native Americans were a bunch of naked savages that ran around scalping each other, they should be thankful for our white Jesus. Our history books were rewritten during the Red Scare era of the 1950s to combat evil communism, both at home and abroard. Any attempt to make them truthful is known as "revisionism." You can hear the hillbillies say, "That wasn't our history when I was growing up." And that is why we are a bunch of sorry assholes.

..."And that is why we are a bunch of sorry assholes"...there's always the option of leaving, unless of course, our oppressive government is holding you here against your will. I hear Hugo Chaves runs a nice socialist country, except that he just arrested the editor of a newspaper that criticized him.

[Dotard]

Socialism is born out of desire for the poor not to be poor, yet not wanting to actually do any work. Capitalism lets the poor become rich, if they work hard, have ideas, etc, etc. Socialism is the ideal way for slackers to live in a society whilst not contributing anything to society.

RedLandFish is back. Poor people are a bunch of slackers. They dont want to work.
Poor people who work hard all their lives, have ideas, etc. etc. and never get anywhere don't exist.

Capitalism is preditory by nature. The big dogs eat the smaller dogs. How many doing well small buisnesses are put under and 'doing good' people made into poor folks by capitalistic large corporations?

Capitalism is about widening the divide between the rich and the poor. The courts, lobbyists, paid for legislation are the weapons of the big dogs and money is the ammo.

To be a struggling buisnessman you have access to the same weapons, but have no ammo. The rich want to keep the divide wide because it's easier to pick off the small ones pulling ahead before they get too close.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Reaganomics at it's best.

[Tiberius]

RedLandFish is back. Poor people are a bunch of slackers. They dont want to work.

I never said that. I said socialism is the ideal way for people to not work and get money. Poor people are certainly not slackers; there are many reasons why people can be poor: not enough jobs, lack of skills, low wage jobs, etc.

Poor people who work hard all their lives, have ideas, etc. etc. and never get anywhere don't exist.

The poor who have ideas that never get anywhere are those whose ideas were not worth anything in the first place, or who did not work hard to get it to work. If you have an idea, any idea, that is commercially viable, you can get it to work if you commit to it.

There will be people who work hard their entire lives and still be poor, but that is what happens if you don't have any skills or ideas that work. It's tough, but this is why you are encouraged to get an education.

Capitalism is preditory by nature. The big dogs eat the smaller dogs. How many doing well small buisnesses are put under and 'doing good' people made into poor folks by capitalistic large corporations?

Those companies who do not adapt to increasing competition will inevitably fail. If a large corporation is doing what your company does for less profit, it is time to think about other business ideas, or expanding your business so it has a unique sales point.

Capitalism is about widening the divide between the rich and the poor. The courts, lobbyists, paid for legislation are the weapons of the big dogs and money is the ammo.

On the contrary, the divide between the rich and the poor is practically non-existent. You can attend free events in every city where wealthy businessmen go to talk about entrepreneurship and encourage ideas. I've been to a lot of them, met loads of millionaires, and I'm a student with a 30k debt.

As I've said before, I'm against protection of big business as much as the socialists are. The only difference is that the socialists want big business gone, whilst I'm fine with it being there as long as it can support itself.

To be a struggling buisnessman you have access to the same weapons, but have no ammo. The rich want to keep the divide wide because it's easier to pick off the small ones pulling ahead before they get too close.

There are ways of preventing takeovers, and if a businessman was competent he'd know that. You can easily prevent being picked off and still remain a success.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Reaganomics at it's best.

The rich get richer, the rich create more jobs, the poor get the jobs, the poor become the rich.

Circle of economics my friend, and completely accurate.