The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Redbeard The Pink]

Yes I would like to see this link you speak of.

The one I remember is the list of murders and genocides performed by Gaud's people and/or Gaud himself. No, I'm not going to dig it out again just so you can ignore it again.

The difference is God is alive.  He has a mind and a will and emotions. Then out of His creativity He made all things, including human beings that have minds wills and emotions.

Oh look...more assertions stated as fact...how droll...

Now I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but I see that there is a spontaneous life coming from you world view and how that is happening isn't explained.

Yet.

Why we have minds, wills, and emotions which is a product from non-life isn't explained either. 

That would be because of our brains, dear (or at least it is for most of us).

So I find this an interesting statement...very interesting.  I would love to hear your further thoughts on why you see this as a failing.

It's a failing because there is no reason to assume there's always an answer to "why." Insisting that there must be a reason behind everything is a false assumption with no evidence to support it.

God is a cogent answer for why materials behave the way they do.

No, he's not, and if he is, prove it.

You expect the same from my God that is why you demand evidence.

I expect nothing from Gaud because he doesn't exist. I demand evidence from you because your statements require it before they can be accepted.

 So, why when I ask for it you say my insistence for a cogent answer is a failing?

Your insistence on everything having a "why" is a failing because there's no reason to assume that there's a reason behind everything, and because it forces you to fill in the gaps with mythological beings.

Your statement that material always existed is untestable.

Two things:

1. No, it probably isn't.

2. That wasn't a statement I made. I said that's maybe what happened, and I also said that maybe something came from nothing instead. Science doesn't know yet, and neither do you.

Your idea that humans and monkeys came from the same ancestor is untestable.

Except that it isn't...because of genetics. Genetics is what allows us to test for ancestry.


You're really bad at this.

So are we going to throw those out?

Actually no, it doesn't look like we need to.

I am going to assume you are saying that there is nothing in the universe that can destroy matter/energy.

Why would you need to assume anything about what I said? I spelled it out in plain English. I said "matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed," and that is exactly what I meant. It's the Law of Conservation of Matter.

Yet, God is not apart of the universe but created the universe so it would make sense that nothing in the universe could undone what God has done. (Ecc 3:14) 

Oh look...another assertion...

Excuse me if I didn't say it or didn't see it but What is your definition for reality? 

Reality is a place where I don't have to dick around with you about semantics.

Hey man thanks for this conversation it is starting to get great. (I am not lieing!)  Have a great day I going to be gone for a bit, but looking forward to what you have to say. 

What the fuck is "lieing"?

[TheRocketSurgeon]

You know, it dawns on me that people who deny our common ancestry with the other great apes should not be allowed to use DNA testing in paternity suits. It's the same information, based on the same genetic principles. You don't get to deny the science in area A while using it for your own devices in area B.

---

Edit to Add: I found this while I was looking for a meme for the Debate-via-Memes thread, and had to post it here, along with my response.

The meme:



My reply, along with the phrase, "You unbelievably ignorant, power-hungry morons!" is:

[vorlon13]

The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

It occurs to me that logically we don't know following Jesus doesn't work because no one has ever tried it.  I'm willing to keep an open mind on the topic until we see someone step up to the plate.

[LadyForCamus]

You know, it dawns on me that people who deny our common ancestry with the other great apes should not be allowed to use DNA testing in paternity suits. It's the same information, based on the same genetic principles. You don't get to deny the science in area A while using it for your own devices in area B.

Oh, this boils my blood every time I have to hear a theist cry of evolution, "but it's just a theory!" or how "the scientific method makes mistakes all the time!" I want to ask them if they've ever taken any prescription medications before. I mean, I'm assuming they trust that their doctor has chosen the safest and most efficacious drug for them. How do they think scientists reach such conclusions? But "that kind of science" is totally fine. It's all the other scary, threatening science that we need to be suspicious of.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

You know, it dawns on me that people who deny our common ancestry with the other great apes should not be allowed to use DNA testing in paternity suits. It's the same information, based on the same genetic principles. You don't get to deny the science in area A while using it for your own devices in area B.

---

Edit to Add: I found this while I was looking for a meme for the Debate-via-Memes thread, and had to post it here, along with my response.

The meme:



My reply, along with the phrase, "You unbelievably ignorant, power-hungry morons!" is:

Why don't other animals have chins?

[Rekeisha]

May I see the documentation for the evidence of the Israelite God coming for the storm god El? As well as the evidence of the change of the biblical old testament documents that were altered trying to cover up the fact?

Okay, start with Dr. Mark S. Smith, a Biblical scholar who holds the Skirball Chair of Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies in the Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at NYU:

In the past, the question of Israelite polytheism has been approached by looking for evidence of specific deities worshipped by Israelites in addition to Yahweh. These would include biblical criticisms of the worship of other deities, such as the goddess Asherah in 2 Kings 21 and 23, as well as apparent references to this goddess or at least her symbol in the inscriptions from Kuntillet 'Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom in the eighth century. In the Kuntillet 'Ajrud inscriptions, the symbol is treated respectfully as part of the worship of Yahweh. The gods Resheph and Deber appear in Habakkuk 3:5 as part of the military retinue of Yahweh. Other deities who gain some mention in the Bible include the "hosts of heaven" criticized in 2 Kings 21:5, but mentioned without such criticism in 1 Kings 22:19 and Zephaniah 1:5. Scholars have also noted that the god El is identified with Yahweh in the Bible, again with no criticism. The criticisms of Yahweh's archenemy, the storm god, Baal, also seem to reflect Israelite worship of this god. While many of these deities are not well known from the Bible, they are described sometimes at considerable length in the Ugaritic texts, discovered first in 1928 at the site of Ras Shamra (located on the coast of Syria about 100 miles north of Beirut). As a result of comparing biblical and inscriptional evidence with the Ugaritic texts, we can see how the worship of other deities lasted for quite a long time in Israel down to the Exile in ca. 586.

(Bold emphases my own.)

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/MSmi...eism.shtml

I actually recommend you read some of his books. You can start with these:

The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel

The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts

thank you I appreciateate this link. I will look into this

[Rekeisha]

Hey Nymphadora,

I am here to tell people about the gospel and magnify God.

Bold mine.
Newsflash: We don't give a shit about your god or his gospel. Go magnify him elsewhere. If you think you are here to convert people, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you. Prime rates too!

After that I will allow God to handle the rest.

He's doing a bang up job at all the things he should have done like end disease, end terminal illness, obliterate hunger, keep everyone happy.
So.... how long should we wait for this non-existent gawd to "handle" shit?  

I love God

Goody for you. Take your love and shove it up your ass.

even though you may not see or believe it,

I don't. Now fuck off.

I have a heart for you

You are full of shit. You don't know me well enough TO have a heart for me. You only say that because you fear your god so much that if you aren't as sickeningly nice to people as you can be and tell everyone all about his bullshit, narcissistic ways, you'll end up in your imaginary hell.

and a desire that you would know God.

I do not share this desire with you. You are on your own. And your desire is pointless where atheists are concerned.

He has done a great thing for me and I know He can do the same for anyone who wants to move from death to life. He has blessed me greatly and redeemed me.

How sad that you think he did things for you when in reality it was your own hard work that got you where you are. The problem with you christians is that you give your god all the credit for something positive, but any negative shit, you blame on people. Clearly being brainwashed has done more harm than good since you seem to be living in a backwards society built on a man-made religious farce.

So I am striving to live a life that is worthy of His gospel not to make you feel good as you sit under God's wrath.

Hmmm... sweetie, I don't sit under your imaginary god's wrath and even if I did, he's done nothing to show me he exists. I ain't skeered, if that's what you want me to be. I laugh at your puny god and the fact that you really think that you can come to an atheist forum and convert people.

It is a common misunderstand that people have that true christians are doing things out of terror for God. Actually I am amazed by God and through the years my affection for Him is getting deeper the more I know Him. I am not trying to earn my place with God or be seen as worthy by Him.  I know I am not, but God has made a way though the blood of Christ.  I am secure and confident in my relationship with God, I have a purpose and worth in Him. There is nothing that can separate me from God. No one can condemn me and that is liberating. 

Also, Christian's don't give God enough credit for what He has done for them. I have been reflecting on this and I am more confident in His ability than mine. You can tell by my spelling, and grammar that I am not perfect so yeah that is just the tip of my inabilities. Yet, God has done and is doing amazing things in my life and I am positive He will be doing even more. I mean, had He not changed me I would have already cursed all of you out by now. It's more than just my actions, but my desires have changed. I don't want to curse you I want you to know Him no matter what you think of me. I pray and allow God to do the work because like I said I can't convert you. So, nope I don't know you, like you don't know me. Still, that doesn't mean that I can't love you or pray for you.

[Rekeisha]

Yes I would like to see this link you speak of.

The one I remember is the list of murders and genocides performed by Gaud's people and/or Gaud himself. No, I'm not going to dig it out again just so you can ignore it again.

The difference is God is alive.  He has a mind and a will and emotions. Then out of His creativity He made all things, including human beings that have minds wills and emotions.

Oh look...more assertions stated as fact...how droll...

Now I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but I see that there is a spontaneous life coming from you world view and how that is happening isn't explained.

Yet.

Why we have minds, wills, and emotions which is a product from non-life isn't explained either. 

That would be because of our brains, dear (or at least it is for most of us).

So I find this an interesting statement...very interesting.  I would love to hear your further thoughts on why you see this as a failing.

It's a failing because there is no reason to assume there's always an answer to "why." Insisting that there must be a reason behind everything is a false assumption with no evidence to support it.

God is a cogent answer for why materials behave the way they do.

No, he's not, and if he is, prove it.

You expect the same from my God that is why you demand evidence.

I expect nothing from Gaud because he doesn't exist. I demand evidence from you because your statements require it before they can be accepted.

 So, why when I ask for it you say my insistence for a cogent answer is a failing?

Your insistence on everything having a "why" is a failing because there's no reason to assume that there's a reason behind everything, and because it forces you to fill in the gaps with mythological beings.

Your statement that material always existed is untestable.

Two things:

1. No, it probably isn't.

2. That wasn't a statement I made. I said that's maybe what happened, and I also said that maybe something came from nothing instead. Science doesn't know yet, and neither do you.

Your idea that humans and monkeys came from the same ancestor is untestable.

Except that it isn't...because of genetics. Genetics is what allows us to test for ancestry.


You're really bad at this.

So are we going to throw those out?

Actually no, it doesn't look like we need to.

I am going to assume you are saying that there is nothing in the universe that can destroy matter/energy.

Why would you need to assume anything about what I said? I spelled it out in plain English. I said "matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed," and that is exactly what I meant. It's the Law of Conservation of Matter.

Yet, God is not apart of the universe but created the universe so it would make sense that nothing in the universe could undone what God has done. (Ecc 3:14) 

Oh look...another assertion...

Excuse me if I didn't say it or didn't see it but What is your definition for reality? 

Reality is a place where I don't have to dick around with you about semantics.

Hey man thanks for this conversation it is starting to get great. (I am not lieing!)  Have a great day I going to be gone for a bit, but looking forward to what you have to say. 

What the fuck is "lieing"?

Hey thanks for pointing out the lieing thing, I think I have been spelling that wrong for a long time. 

I don't see how a list of atrocities are a proof against God. Actually, let me say it this way. I don't see how you can judge God with integrity so therefore I take your statement about God being evil as erroneous.  Why I make that statement is because your standard for right and wrong is inconsistent.  You say that morals are subjective so there is nothing that is firm and unmoving to base your judgements, today America insists that ____  is wrong but in a couple of months it may not be. At the core your standard for morals are only arbitrary and at the whim of what people deem as correct whether they are consistent with reality or not. 

Two things:

1. No, it probably isn't.

2. That wasn't a statement I made. I said that's maybe what happened, and I also said that maybe something came from nothing instead. Science doesn't know yet, and neither do you.

As for 2. I do know what happened because I know the one who made it happen. God is trustworthy and nothing like us.  You are the one who is uncertain because you rely on humans to tell you what is real. Humans are flawed, self-seeking, finite, and do not know everything.  Scientist are not perfect humans so their findings can be flawed and misinterpreted to fit their own presuppositions. Don't assume or put your trust in science because it can't save you. It has not proven a great deal of things, yet you will bet your eternal soul on it. 

I expect nothing from Gaud because he doesn't exist. I demand evidence from you because your statements require it before they can be accepted.

So you have a double standard because I would say the same for your assertion that matter has always existed. Don't play with your eternal soul because you want to be right. If your world view has to skirt past the "why", you don't have assurance of consistency, or have a firm standard for morals; then your world view is weak, and will cause destruction in your life.

[drfuzzy]

---

Bold mine.
Newsflash: We don't give a shit about your god or his gospel. Go magnify him elsewhere. If you think you are here to convert people, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd like to sell you. Prime rates too!



He's doing a bang up job at all the things he should have done like end disease, end terminal illness, obliterate hunger, keep everyone happy.
So.... how long should we wait for this non-existent gawd to "handle" shit?  


Goody for you. Take your love and shove it up your ass.



I don't. Now fuck off.



You are full of shit. You don't know me well enough TO have a heart for me. You only say that because you fear your god so much that if you aren't as sickeningly nice to people as you can be and tell everyone all about his bullshit, narcissistic ways, you'll end up in your imaginary hell.


I do not share this desire with you. You are on your own. And your desire is pointless where atheists are concerned.



How sad that you think he did things for you when in reality it was your own hard work that got you where you are. The problem with you christians is that you give your god all the credit for something positive, but any negative shit, you blame on people. Clearly being brainwashed has done more harm than good since you seem to be living in a backwards society built on a man-made religious farce.



Hmmm... sweetie, I don't sit under your imaginary god's wrath and even if I did, he's done nothing to show me he exists. I ain't skeered, if that's what you want me to be. I laugh at your puny god and the fact that you really think that you can come to an atheist forum and convert people.

---

---

It is a common misunderstand that people have that true christians are doing things out of terror for God.

---

Actually I am amazed by God and through the years my affection for Him is getting deeper the more I know Him. I am not trying to earn my place with God or be seen as worthy by Him.  I know I am not, but God has made a way though the blood of Christ.  I am secure and confident in my relationship with God, I have a purpose and worth in Him. There is nothing that can separate me from God.

 

---

No one can condemn me and that is liberating. 

Also, Christian's don't give God enough credit for what He has done for them. I have been reflecting on this and I am more confident in His ability than mine. You can tell by my spelling, and grammar that I am not perfect so yeah that is just the tip of my inabilities. Yet, God has done and is doing amazing things in my life and I am positive He will be doing even more. I mean, had He not changed me I would have already cursed all of you out by now. It's more than just my actions, but my desires have changed. I don't want to curse you I want you to know Him no matter what you think of me. I pray and allow God to do the work because like I said I can't convert you. So, nope I don't know you, like you don't know me. Still, that doesn't mean that I can't love you or pray for you.

---

Well, aren't you just special.  Kudos.  You know gawd personally, he talks to you, he meddles in your everyday life, nothing can separate you.  Well well.  So tell me, how could someone who memorized most of the wholly babble and prayed fervently to feel SOMETHING . . . ANYTHING . . . for 46 years get no response whatsoever?  Someone who was desperate to have your confidence in gawd, and begged to receive it daily for over four decades, but never had any confirmation that anyone, anywhere, was listening - - not a hint, not a murmur, nothing.  Yet people here keep saying that it's GOD that reaches out to people.  So . . . what??  You're probably going to tell me that gawd knew all along that I would begin to study science and logic, and would turn atheist, so gawd just never bothered to say "hi", is that it?

Don't give me the "you were never a real Christian" line.  I have heard it more than enough.

[Joods]

---

It is a common misunderstand that people have that true christians are doing things out of terror for God.

---

 

---

No one can condemn me and that is liberating. 

Also, Christian's don't give God enough credit for what He has done for them. I have been reflecting on this and I am more confident in His ability than mine. You can tell by my spelling, and grammar that I am not perfect so yeah that is just the tip of my inabilities. Yet, God has done and is doing amazing things in my life and I am positive He will be doing even more. I mean, had He not changed me I would have already cursed all of you out by now. It's more than just my actions, but my desires have changed. I don't want to curse you I want you to know Him no matter what you think of me. I pray and allow God to do the work because like I said I can't convert you. So, nope I don't know you, like you don't know me. Still, that doesn't mean that I can't love you or pray for you.

---

Well, aren't you just special.  Kudos.  You know gawd personally, he talks to you, he meddles in your everyday life, nothing can separate you.  Well well.  So tell me, how could someone who memorized most of the wholly babble and prayed fervently to feel SOMETHING . . . ANYTHING . . . for 46 years get no response whatsoever?  Someone who was desperate to have your confidence in gawd, and begged to receive it daily for over four decades, but never had any confirmation that anyone, anywhere, was listening - - not a hint, not a murmur, nothing.  Yet people here keep saying that it's GOD that reaches out to people.  So . . . what??  You're probably going to tell me that gawd knew all along that I would begin to study science and logic, and would turn atheist, so gawd just never bothered to say "hi", is that it?

Don't give me the "you were never a real Christian" line.  I have heard it more than enough.

This. For years I prayed and prayed and believed and believed and put my absolute trust in an imaginary thing that never bothered to send down help to end the abuse I endured as a child. That imaginary thing never bothered to help me with my custody battle, full well knowing that I did not (and still don't) have the money to get my children back and away from a monster who continues to brainwash and mess with my kids' minds. Yeah. Some fucking god. If he heard me at all, he certainly didn't give two shits about my situations both as a child and what I've faced as an adult. And before you christians can claim that I brought about that shit on my own - screw your blame. No child ever asks to be beat daily with a belt so thick there are grommets around the belt holes and they leave welts the sizes of half dollars on your ass. Yeah. Cuz I asked for that. When I was seven fucking years old. I also asked, at that age, for my narcissistic mother to turn a blind eye to it all. Yep.

Each and every time I hear some christian claim that god has done good work in their lives, it makes me laugh because apparently, if he were real, he clearly has his favorites. No amount of believing or trying to have some personal relationship with some fictitious, imaginary thing will ever change that.