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Let's Give The Muslims A Day Off
#61
RE: Let's Give The Muslims A Day Off
(April 7, 2015 at 10:53 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:
Quote:I didn't say that it was Newton's---or anyone's---belief in Christianity that led to their scientific discoveries, or that "Enlightenment comes from Christianity." Stop lying. You've already debased yourself enough. What I actually said was that "secular values were by and large borne out of Christian values," which I then elaborated upon (had you been paying better attention) by pointing out that certain "secular values" (as I take them to include), such as human equality and separation of church and state, were developed in the West in part by ideas that have a long tradition in Christian morality. My point about Christian thinkers that were pivotal in setting the ground and shaping the Enlightenment---philosophers such as Locke, Berkeley, Descartes, and Pascal, and scientists such as Copernicus, Bruno, Galileo, and Newton, to name only a handful---is that they were influenced by their Christian faith in the idea that Reason reigns supreme and reveals a divine order in the cosmos, because the Creator would do nothing without a perfect or reasonable plan.

The word you're looking for is "deism" not "Christianity". 

It is true that deism in its birth first went through a phase where it was a watered-down version of Christianity. It's full break with Christianity wouldn't happen until the late 18th century. The original deists, in an act of compartmentalization (or cynics might speculate simply the lack of a death-wish, since heretics were still being burned at the stake) did not deny the divinity of Jesus but still suggested looking to the order of the universe rather than scripture to understand God. Nevertheless, looking to the universe instead of traditional beliefs, scripture or priestly authority nonetheless represents a departure from Christianity, not a conclusion of Christianity. You are assuming that "God" = "Christian", which ironically would be an example of the black-and-white thinking you accuse me of. 

But it's not just your stubborn clinging to fallacies despite how you should know better that I find so irritating (it's true, that had you been a Christian I would probably just say "oh, a Christian" and not held you to such a high standard). What's so offensive about your claim is despite how Christian leaders burned intellectuals at the stake and Christianity itself has time and time again thrown up roadblocks to our progress both sociologically and scientifically, that now we should offer any credit for our progress to this ideology. After being dragged, kicking and screaming and with much human suffering, into the modern age, Christianity now has the gall to say, "Oh, I told you so all along. You're welcome."

And like it or not, this is boilerplate Christian apologetics. 

Okay, I will admit that I was not careful enough to delineate the subject matter as artfully as I could have, partly (a very small part), in my defense, because I was on a mobile phone and the new format here in using quotes is still a little awkward to me. I certainly appreciate the difference between Christianity and deism and should have said more to acknowledge that.
Now I'm going to state what I find so offensive in your claims, and if you want to call mine "boilerplate Christian apologetics," yours could just as easily be called anti-religious propaganda. You treat Christianity as a monolithic organization in which burning heretics and every other evil mankind has ever done under its banner is part in parcel with "its ideology." That's a mistake, and not simply because there is no single "Christian ideology" outside of the Two Greatest Commandments. There are more than enough legitimate criticisms of the Christian faith to be made than to require that you start fabricating phony outrage against doctrines or commands or entities that don't exist, such as in the case of the OP which implies that Christian terrorist groups have anything remotely to do with Christianity as it was formulated in their sacred writings. It's the same mindset that blames atheism or freethought for bad acts committed by people who are vocal against faith. But what's worse, you ignore the Christians who themselves were burned at the stake or thrown into prison for standing up for their convictions (which they did not perceive as antithetical to the Bible), those who fought side by side with their secular counterparts to moderate the "leaders" of the state who incidentally happened to call themselves followers of Christ. The same thing happens whenever the debate about Christianity's role in the abolition of slavery comes up. There's never enough honesty or nuance by the so-called "freethinkers" who want to see religion destroyed to acknowledge the vital and courageous role that Christians played in that, but instead the tendency is only to demonize the side we disagree with. That you do this is as nauseating as it would be if a bunch of sane, secularized (i.e. educated) Muslims came to have a powerful, long-lasting influence on Middle East politics (by struggling for hundreds of years to combat state-sanctioned religious violence, as in the case of some, though not all, of the Reformers and subsequent Christians who vouched for progress), turned their respective cultures around, and then afterwards someone such as yourself were to come along and say, "Ah, look at what we did. I'm glad we secularists stopped those evil Muslims and their violent ideology." Yes, secularism is a wonderful thing and it had a crucial role to play in moving the world forward. But no, Christianity is not the devil, or a necessary intermediate between theocracy and the liberties we cherish. It can be. But so can dogmatism expressed in the name of humanism. So can any ideology. If you want to make the case that Islam and Christianity contain within their sacred texts an oppressive social or political blueprint, then make that case. I don't think I'd disagree on all accounts. Then the question becomes does it allow for liberal reform within the texts? I think that it does comes much more naturally to the founding teachings within Christianity than it does with regards to Islam, but I sincerely hope I am wrong about that.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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