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To the people I have offended with my post: abaris, thesummerqueen, One Above All, Kitan, and anyone else it offends in the future
I am truly sorry. The very last thing I wanted to do was offend the other gay people on this forum. It was incredibly stupid of me to post that sort of theory in the middle of a heated debate on the subject. It was meant as a stepping-stone to argument with Heywood; trying to find some common ground and showing that if there was any choice involved, as he claims, that it would be minimal at best and in any case uninformed.
I got defensive in my replies to your replies because I thought no-one was actually reading it properly, but fuck that, don't read it - it's a shitty theory and I'm sorry I even thought it up: I can find no conscious choice, whatsoever, in the development of my own sexuality. Being bisexual I can choose to look at gay porn or straight porn but that is the limit of my choice in the matter - it does not change my sexuality in the slightest or who I am attracted to and I did not mean to imply for a second that people could just change sexualities at the drop of a hat or choose to find someone attractive. I don't believe that at all.
Anyway I will not defend that theory and will direct future replies to it to this apology. Please forgive me.
I think I understood what you were trying to say. I'm also bi, but I live as if I were straight. I've molded myself into only dating men, even though I am still very attracted to women. It's just easier that way. I think because it's a spectrum, people who are toward the middle of the line sort of do have their choice in the matter; at least as far as acting on it goes.
I do, however, find it disgusting when people spout, "homosexuality is a choice!" as if, if true, it should have any bearing on whether consenting adults can carry on a relationship together in whatever capacity works for them.
To the people I have offended with my post: abaris, thesummerqueen, One Above All, Kitan, and anyone else it offends in the future
I am truly sorry. The very last thing I wanted to do was offend the other gay people on this forum. It was incredibly stupid of me to post that sort of theory in the middle of a heated debate on the subject. It was meant as a stepping-stone to argument with Heywood; trying to find some common ground and showing that if there was any choice involved, as he claims, that it would be minimal at best and in any case uninformed.
I got defensive in my replies to your replies because I thought no-one was actually reading it properly, but fuck that, don't read it - it's a shitty theory and I'm sorry I even thought it up: I can find no conscious choice, whatsoever, in the development of my own sexuality. Being bisexual I can choose to look at gay porn or straight porn but that is the limit of my choice in the matter - it does not change my sexuality in the slightest or who I am attracted to and I did not mean to imply for a second that people could just change sexualities at the drop of a hat or choose to find someone attractive. I don't believe that at all.
Anyway I will not defend that theory and will direct future replies to it to this apology. Please forgive me.
I think I understood what you were trying to say. I'm also bi, but I live as if I were straight. I've molded myself into only dating men, even though I am still very attracted to women. It's just easier that way. I think because it's a spectrum, people who are toward the middle of the line sort of do have their choice in the matter; at least as far as acting on it goes.
I do, however, find it disgusting when people spout, "homosexuality is a choice!" as if, if true, it should have any bearing on whether consenting adults can carry on a relationship together in whatever capacity works for them.
Thanks. Funny that I find it easier to live as if I were gay than straight. That's certainly one against Heywood's argument that given the choice most people would prefer to live as straight.
I hate the "homosexuality is a choice" argument too, especially when no thought or attempt at empathy has gone into it; the hypocrisy that comes from people who can't apply the reverse "heterosexuality is a choice" to themselves. I just hate hypocrisy full stop.
Anyway I should have gone to bed three hours ago but this stuff's kept me up, so if it's okay I'll say night night.
To the people I have offended with my post: abaris, thesummerqueen, One Above All, Kitan, and anyone else it offends in the future
I am truly sorry. The very last thing I wanted to do was offend the other gay people on this forum. It was incredibly stupid of me to post that sort of theory in the middle of a heated debate on the subject. It was meant as a stepping-stone to argument with Heywood; trying to find some common ground and showing that if there was any choice involved, as he claims, that it would be minimal at best and in any case uninformed.
I got defensive in my replies to your replies because I thought no-one was actually reading it properly, but fuck that, don't read it - it's a shitty theory and I'm sorry I even thought it up: I can find no conscious choice, whatsoever, in the development of my own sexuality. Being bisexual I can choose to look at gay porn or straight porn but that is the limit of my choice in the matter - it does not change my sexuality in the slightest or who I am attracted to and I did not mean to imply for a second that people could just change sexualities at the drop of a hat or choose to find someone attractive. I don't believe that at all.
Anyway I will not defend that theory and will direct future replies to it to this apology. Please forgive me.
I think I understood what you were trying to say. I'm also bi, but I live as if I were straight. I've molded myself into only dating men, even though I am still very attracted to women. It's just easier that way. I think because it's a spectrum, people who are toward the middle of the line sort of do have their choice in the matter; at least as far as acting on it goes.
I do, however, find it disgusting when people spout, "homosexuality is a choice!" as if, if true, it should have any bearing on whether consenting adults can carry on a relationship together in whatever capacity works for them.
My bolding.
Me too. Then I get forced into the endless circle of determinism vs free will.
Unless the speaker (usually the case) is too dense to understand that there is an unanswered question there.
My personal take on homosexuality, marriage equality, denying cakes to gays conforms to my views of how replicating systems (life) make their way in the universe. I don't subscribe to the naturalistic fallacy (after watching lots of homosexuality in cows and even inter-species horniness in pigs.) Is doesn't make ought It's just that some of us replicate better than others. Those are the ones we see the most of. It's kind of a tautology.
We're all just complicated replicating wet chemistry, whatever your self image might end up as.
I think that some homosexuality is probably advantageous in replication. Why do super-models often have a bad body image? For the same reason that talented athletes train. You're more likely to win if you don't take the situation for granted. In this case, winning means you have more offspring. Now imagine you are a male who is revolted by males, all males, even yourself. Do you have the self confidence to get laid? Not if you think you are so repugnant that nobody should ever want to speak to you, much less touch you. Somewhere there is an equilibrium. Probably somewhere in the 10 to 20% gay area. It's pretty amazing that the squishy bits between your ears are as good as they are at lining up male hardware with the male software. Specially when you consider that the programming that gets your brain there includes DNA transcription to protein (and prions) which have to self assemble into neural nets that interact with reality and come down mostly on the side of hetero (best replicators) sex. It is amazing, but nowhere have we found it to be magic.
There's another idea, that homosex is what is left over for the non-harem masters in the troop. It keeps the less privileged males around for protection and in case the Alpha male gets old, tired or dead. Could be, I don't know. It doesn't explain homosexuality in animals who don't form groups. There are too many wheels within wheels for me to get it.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat?
April 20, 2015 at 12:46 am (This post was last modified: April 20, 2015 at 12:52 am by Thumpalumpacus.)
(April 19, 2015 at 3:30 pm)Rhythm Wrote: ........and all that lovely business about the tulips?
The writer in me knows that we give the richest descriptions to those experiences we know most intimately.
(April 19, 2015 at 5:43 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Ah yes, all the "unrepentant depravity" of consensual sex that causes no harm to anyone.
Tell you what, Chad: you give me any reason why this stuff is wrong without recourse to "god sez so," then maybe there's a discussion to be had in there. But if you're just gonna shitpost I can happily report you for your flamebait: I don't think I've seen a single post from you that wasn't a one sentence, presumptuous jab at someone else in quite a while, so it's long overdue.
Please don't report him. Let him speak, and speak proudly, on his views. Let him own his bigotry. Let him be pasted with it.
By all means, please do not stifle this example of the bigotry that religion inculcates into thoughtless practitioners. Please.
(April 19, 2015 at 5:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: [...] or why it hurts anyone.
I gave teh surprise buttsecks to the old lady, on accident, once. She bled for three days and refused doggy-style for a month.
(April 20, 2015 at 12:46 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Please don't report him. Let him speak, and speak proudly, on his views. Let him own his bigotry. Let him be pasted with it.
By all means, please do not stifle this example of the bigotry that religion inculcates into thoughtless practitioners. Please
Let's be clear: Nobody will be reported for airing their views, no matter how despicable I happen to find them. Chad is free to speak his mind on whatever issue he pleases, and if he happens to get tarred with the brush that mind uses, so be it.
What I will not have is a continuation of those dismissive, short little flamebait posts about how we're all nihilists and wanting to sin. I don't care where those views originated from, but repeated misrepresentation of another's views solely to incite them to anger is against the rules, it adds nothing to the conversation but an ego boost to Chad in the place of an actual argument, and I am required to report that if I see it.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
April 20, 2015 at 1:46 am (This post was last modified: April 20, 2015 at 1:47 am by robvalue.)
I'm sure it was just a misunderstanding emjay, not that you offended me, you didn't. It happens very easily on the Internet, especially with the odd mode of communication of a forum
It is true that someone who is bi has a choice how they will act on it. Everyone has a choice on how they act on their sexuality, but it's going to be an awful lot harder for a gay/straight person to assume the opposite position. The fact that such bigotry as we've seen on the forum pressures some people into doing this makes me sick. I had hoped civilisation had moved beyond such bullshit by now.
I find it interesting you preferred to live a gay life rather than straight, and as you said it totally blows out the water various wild claims than have been thrown about.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(April 19, 2015 at 9:43 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I think I understood what you were trying to say. I'm also bi, but I live as if I were straight. I've molded myself into only dating men, even though I am still very attracted to women. It's just easier that way. I think because it's a spectrum, people who are toward the middle of the line sort of do have their choice in the matter; at least as far as acting on it goes.
How do you determine where the cutoffs are that indicate someone is hetero or homo, rather than bi? Seems like it would be arbitrary.
Quote:I do, however, find it disgusting when people spout, "homosexuality is a choice!" as if, if true, it should have any bearing on whether consenting adults can carry on a relationship together in whatever capacity works for them.
If true that homosexuality is a choice, would you agree that the racial civil rights movement is a poor analogy for the gay rights movement? It's not like black people can choose to be white.
(April 19, 2015 at 9:43 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I think I understood what you were trying to say. I'm also bi, but I live as if I were straight. I've molded myself into only dating men, even though I am still very attracted to women. It's just easier that way. I think because it's a spectrum, people who are toward the middle of the line sort of do have their choice in the matter; at least as far as acting on it goes.
How do you determine where the cutoffs are that indicate someone is hetero or homo, rather than bi? Seems like it would be arbitrary.
It's not up to me to determine that. If someone says they're gay, they're gay. Unless they choose to expand on that, it's none of my business.
Quote:
Quote:I do, however, find it disgusting when people spout, "homosexuality is a choice!" as if, if true, it should have any bearing on whether consenting adults can carry on a relationship together in whatever capacity works for them.
If true that homosexuality is a choice, would you agree that the racial civil rights movement is a poor analogy for the gay rights movement? It's not like black people can choose to be white.
No, I would not agree. Gay people don't choose to be gay any more than I choose to be bisexual or blacks choose to be black. And where did I indicate that I thought homosexuality was a choice? I didn't. I said that I'm bi, and because I'm so far to the center of the spectrum, it's easier for *me* to make a choice in how I act on my sexuality.
(April 20, 2015 at 11:07 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: It's not up to me to determine that. If someone says they're gay, they're gay. Unless they choose to expand on that, it's none of my business.
So, if a person "toward the middle" of the spectrum self identifies as gay, they're gay, even though they
"sort of do have their choice in the matter." This goes against the born gay paradigm.
Quote:No, I would not agree. Gay people don't choose to be gay any more than I choose to be bisexual or blacks choose to be black.
But, if someone in the middle part of the bi spectrum chooses to self identify as gay, you consider them gay, rather than bi. That's a choice, and blacks don't have that choice.
Quote:And where did I indicate that I thought homosexuality was a choice? I didn't.
1. That's an argument that can be made from your spectrum position. The difference between gay, bi and hetero is an arbitrary demarcation on the spectrum.
2. You said "if true" and made an argument. I'm doing likewise.
Quote:I said that I'm bi, and because I'm so far to the center of the spectrum, it's easier for *me* to make a choice in how I act on my sexuality.
Sure, it's easier for some to choose certain partners than it is for others. That's what I said earlier - that the evidence seems to indicate an innate predisposition toward a sexual identity, but that it's not controlling.
