Open challenge regarding the supernatural

[robvalue]

Following on from my arrogant ramblings in the miracle thread, I thought it would be interesting to make this its own topic.

My challenge to anyone is to make an argument that demonstrates, beyond reasonable doubt, that anything supernatural exists, or any supernatural event has ever happened. This includes such things as a "God" exisiting (assuming it's not just a labelling of something natural), a religion involving the supernatural being "true", or any other woo type stuff you like.

I'll use this definition of supernatural: anything that cannot be tested, detected or measured by natural means, regardless of whether we currently have the ability to do so. If you want to use a different definition, please make that clear. If you're arguing for a god or a religion, or some sort of woo, please define as best you can what it is you are arguing for.

Here are the rules. To accept my challenge, you have to make a positive claim/argument. In other words, you are arguing for something supernatural, not trying to prove it's not impossible. I'm not saying they are impossible. I'm also not be saying your claim, whatever it is, is false. You can argue about supernatural things in general, or about something specific you have in mind.

Please make it as succinct as possible, I don't want to read hundreds of pages. And for this reason, here is the second rule:

If I can identify any one of the following, anywhere in your argument, I win. For this reason, don't add anything more to your argument than necessary so I'm not cutting off something you later say isn't actually necessary for your argument to still be true. I'll address only this point that I find, and I'll consider your argument defeated. You're then welcome to adjust your argument and resubmit it.

Dishonest or invalid techniques:

1) Untrue or unsupported statements/assumptions
2) Logical fallacies
3) Emotional manipulation

If I can't find any of these, and you have made a compelling argument for the existence of anything supernatural or such an event ever happening, then you win. Your prize is that I'll be so stunned that I'll have to reconsider my entire belief system.

Of course, it will be a matter of opinion whether my objections are valid, and whether your argument is compelling. I leave it up to each reader to decide for themselves. You are of course welcome to discuss why you think any of my objections are invalid. But again, if I spot one of those 3 things in your rebuttal, I have defeated it.

If anyone wants to actually debate the rules I have set up, and thinks anything is unfair or should be changed, please feel free to do so.

Final rule: anyone just being a dick will be ignored.

Is this arrogant? Probably. But I think it's interesting, and I'd like to put my confidence in this to the test. Have at it! Maybe I should put this on that catholic forum? You're welcome to redirect people here to come kick my arse and shut my big mouth.

[ignoramus]

2 words
Quantum Entanglement

It's the work of the devil I tell ya!
This is supernatural wouldn't you agree?
With no clear reason why it exists.

[robvalue]

Yeah I don't know very much about that, so I guess you win Oops! I have only a very basic knowledge of QM.

I agree everything at the quantum level appears to be magic and insane. But everything we know about it is from observation and measurement, so it's not (necessarily) supernatural.

[ignoramus]

but isn't that the definition of "supernatural"
Anything without a solid explanation is "woo"

Let's say we were visited 2000 years ago. Wouldn't the goat herders make up there own woo for what they saw because they couldn't comprehend what was actually happening.

[Aoi Magi]

Nobody sane can make a positive claim about the supernatural, I think, because all of the effects we can observe are within our natural world limits and science works by trying to fit/explain these effects within the natural world. Frankly we know very little about the natural world itself to draw even a vague boundary around it, and hence it is impossible to even speculate on the supernatural based on this knowledge, which by definition is beyond the natural realm.

[robvalue]

but isn't that the definition of "supernatural"
Anything without a solid explanation is "woo"

Let's say we were visited 2000 years ago. Wouldn't the goat herders make up there own woo for what they saw because they couldn't comprehend what was actually happening.

Well, I'd say "woo" is where people put forward their own explanations for things we don't understand (or even things we do understand). It's different just saying "we don't understand this yet" to saying "it's a spiritual force which comes from another dimension". This is exactly what people used to do yeah, and still do today. So if they called lightning a supernatural event, they would have been wrong. If they claim there's a god Thor doing it, that is eventually found to be a needless assumption which adds no expanatory power. That's the problem, by making up your own story, we don't learn anything new, we have just found a pretty way of saying "I don't know".

So labelling parts of QM we dont understand as supernatural would be woo in itself, because there's always the chance we will discover how to understand it in a natural way. Then our classification will have been wrong. And since you can't prove the classification is right (hence the challenge) it's a pointless thing to say. Maybe it is partly supernatural, but the point is you can't justify saying so.

And I agree, I don't think there can be a supernatural claim that makes any sense, that's the point I'm hoping to make with the challenge. It certainly hasn't stopped religion though, it's just people aren't analysing the claims being made in an objective way. Even people who may be excellent critical thinkers, far better than me I'm sure, succumb to mind melt when it comes to their pet woo/religion.

Even if your claim is true, you can't actually know it is true or have any idea if it is true.

If religion ever wants to be taken seriously in an academic way, rule number one is stop saying things are supernatural. Say God is natural. At least then you can justify knowing something about it. But the problem is that then you can be proved wrong. So they hide it behind this shield.

[Mudhammam]

The term supernatural is just a pious way of saying, "I don't know what the fuck is going on here!" Literally everything is a miracle in the empty skulls of feverish believers---not simply virgin births---but all births!

[ignoramus]

Grue is out there ....everywhere!
But unfortunately, as soon as you uncover it, it becomes green or blue.

I think religion is like that.

[zebo-the-fat]

Supernatural is a null term, if it happens then it happens in the natural world.

[Longhorn]

Bbbbbbut magics