SATAN!

[Violet]

(How would I know about the banana thing??)

Well... I'd have assumed that you (being a hobbit and all) got the short end of the stick

There is no banana rapage. Repeat that after me....

But then I'd be lying! hock:

[chatpilot]

frodo wrote: 'God never murders, or condones murder... God can only ever take life justly. That's what every reference in the bible follows.'

Everything you just said about god in the above cited post contradicts what the bible says happened. How do you justify the murder of millions by this deity? By whose standards is what this deity allegedly did just? Killing children for making fun of a prophet is just? If we were talking about anyone else (Hitler namely) doing the things this deity allegedly did we would call him a maniac.

[fr0d0]

This deity murdered none, but killed many. He doesn't kill for fun, but in justice. Hitler is judged by humans in the light of war. War crimes are just that.. unjust actions in war.

Gods law is known and fixed. God can't violate this law, or we'd have to redefine 'just'. God's law is also 'within us' (biblical reference), so we can know if that pans out. To say that the God of the bible is unjust, is to say our own sense of justice is wrong. I trust that my sense of justice is correct, and I trust that the God of the bible is just. Anything else would require a complete rewrite of justice as we know it, and ultimately makes no sense.

[Shinylight]

This deity murdered none, but killed many. He doesn't kill for fun, but in justice. Hitler is judged by humans in the light of war. War crimes are just that.. unjust actions in war.

Gods law is known and fixed. God can't violate this law, or we'd have to redefine 'just'. God's law is also 'within us' (biblical reference), so we can know if that pans out. To say that the God of the bible is unjust, is to say our own sense of justice is wrong. I trust that my sense of justice is correct, and I trust that the God of the bible is just. Anything else would require a complete rewrite of justice as we know it, and ultimately makes no sense.

I don't think there are any ways of justifying some of the deaths God has caused in the Bible.

God is a tool wielded by the few for personal gain, to control the masses. To make them do things they wouldn't normally do.

[chatpilot]

frodo wrote: 'This deity murdered none, but killed many.'

So you consider killing someone for simply disobeying you is just? I guess if we go by gods standard then if I tell my daughter not to do something and she does it anyway I should kill her? By gods law and your definition I am justified in doing so? You Christians go out of your way to justify the monster that is the deity that you worship, that in my view is insanity at its best.

[fr0d0]

If your law says it's legal, then it's legal, and not murder. Like I said... all instances of God taking life are just taking of life, and not unjust, for the reasons already stated.

[tavarish]

This deity murdered none, but killed many. He doesn't kill for fun, but in justice. Hitler is judged by humans in the light of war. War crimes are just that.. unjust actions in war.

Hilter kills for political reasons - he's a monster.

God kills for religious reasons - he's just.

It's all what side of the fence you're on. I'm guessing some Nazis don't disagree with Hitler's course of action either.

Gods law is known and fixed. God can't violate this law, or we'd have to redefine 'just'.

Why is God bound to a law? Why can't he violate it?

God's law is also 'within us' (biblical reference), so we can know if that pans out.

What?

To say that the God of the bible is unjust, is to say our own sense of justice is wrong. I trust that my sense of justice is correct, and I trust that the God of the bible is just.

How does one idea of justice equal the other? I do say the God of the Bible is unjust, and the way I can make this assertion is exactly because our concepts of justice and morality have evolved past those portrayed in the Bible. We (western society) don't embrace slavery, don't treat women as property, don't burn witches, don't stone people to death, and don't kill people for not believing or practicing the same religion we practice. This is an example of how secular ideals set straight the backwards laws and morals practiced and promoted by the God of the Bible.

To think justice is unchanging is to misunderstand how societal values change over time.

Anything else would require a complete rewrite of justice as we know it, and ultimately makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. We don't attribute justice to a divine deity, and don't expect our problems to magically go away by something that judges us by a set of rules that it doesn't even follow. Let's be realistic.

To say the God of the Bible is just would be to say that there would be a situation where mass infanticide would be OK.

---

If your law says it's legal, then it's legal, and not murder. Like I said... all instances of God taking life are just taking of life, and not unjust, for the reasons already stated.

OK, so because God says it's just, that makes it OK?

Does murder not equal murder if it's God who mandates it?

How about rape? Infanticide? Torture?

This is a bit disturbing, as you're conflating legality with morality. Even moreso when you mention that it's OK for a deity whose existence you can't demonstrate to kill others without question.

---

frodo wrote: 'This deity murdered none, but killed many.'

So you consider killing someone for simply disobeying you is just? I guess if we go by gods standard then if I tell my daughter not to do something and she does it anyway I should kill her? By gods law and your definition I am justified in doing so? You Christians go out of your way to justify the monster that is the deity that you worship, that in my view is insanity at its best.

Many don't realize that in order to rationalize God's actions, you have to do it by non-biblical standards.

[fr0d0]

This deity murdered none, but killed many. He doesn't kill for fun, but in justice. Hitler is judged by humans in the light of war. War crimes are just that.. unjust actions in war.

Hilter kills for political reasons - he's a monster.

God kills for religious reasons - he's just.

It's all what side of the fence you're on. I'm guessing some Nazis don't disagree with Hitler's course of action either.

The group of people (Nazis) thought it lawful to kill, where the rest of the world/ the balance of majority view judged that to be unlawful.

God kills justly. Your reconstruction is inaccurate.

Gods law is known and fixed. God can't violate this law, or we'd have to redefine 'just'.

Why is God bound to a law? Why can't he violate it?

Because that would be illogical. You're invoking the impossible God again... which is an illogical consideration.

God's law is also 'within us' (biblical reference), so we can know if that pans out.

What?

It's stated many times in the bible... just so's you understand the reference here, and how it relates to humanity.

To say that the God of the bible is unjust, is to say our own sense of justice is wrong. I trust that my sense of justice is correct, and I trust that the God of the bible is just.

How does one idea of justice equal the other? I do say the God of the Bible is unjust, and the way I can make this assertion is exactly because our concepts of justice and morality have evolved past those portrayed in the Bible. We (western society) don't embrace slavery, don't treat women as property, don't burn witches, don't stone people to death, and don't kill people for not believing or practicing the same religion we practice. This is an example of how secular ideals set straight the backwards laws and morals practiced and promoted by the God of the Bible.

To think justice is unchanging is to misunderstand how societal values change over time.

If you look at what the bible says you'll see that God's justice matches your own there. You are of course twisting the truth to arrive at those conclusions. Secular ideals are fluid, and cause the injustices you cite (hence Nazi injustice).

Anything else would require a complete rewrite of justice as we know it, and ultimately makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. We don't attribute justice to a divine deity, and don't expect our problems to magically go away by something that judges us by a set of rules that it doesn't even follow. Let's be realistic.

To say the God of the Bible is just would be to say that there would be a situation where mass infanticide would be OK.

Christians do attribute justice to God, and don't use God to negate their own responsibilities. You're straying into fantasy land again. LMAO @ 'realistic'

Lets factor in a timeless God, who would know the lives of said infants and their descendants. Couldn't he judge that it was merciful to end their lives? It's a question unanswerable by us, other than we know God to be just, and can trust in his actions.

If your law says it's legal, then it's legal, and not murder. Like I said... all instances of God taking life are just taking of life, and not unjust, for the reasons already stated.

OK, so because God says it's just, that makes it OK?

Does murder not equal murder if it's God who mandates it?

How about rape? Infanticide? Torture?

This is a bit disturbing, as you're conflating legality with morality. Even moreso when you mention that it's OK for a deity whose existence you can't demonstrate to kill others without question.

No, because we can know that God is just.

God never mandates murder, only legal taking of life.

Likewise rape, infanticide & torture... God cannot condone that which is contradictory to his nature. That would be impossible.

Lets consider nature. Nature doesn't function on morality, but on natural law, some of which we don't yet understand. In nature, death, and sometimes death by horrible means is a fact of life. The law that determines death is ultimately a positive one. We consider it neither good nor bad... but really it's good... because it is what life is based upon.

[tavarish]

The group of people (Nazis) thought it lawful to kill, where the rest of the world/ the balance of majority view judged that to be unlawful.

God kills justly. Your reconstruction is inaccurate.

LOL. You just reiterated your assertion without backing it up at all.

You basically said "nuh uh, I'm right".

Gods law is known and fixed. God can't violate this law, or we'd have to redefine 'just'.

Why is God bound to a law? Why can't he violate it?

Because that would be illogical. You're invoking the impossible God again... which is an illogical consideration.

Let's backtrack. YOU said God's law is known and fixed and that he can't violate it, which means he is BOUND to it. I'm asking you how you know this, how you know necessary qualities of a deity you can't demonstrate, and why that deity, being all powerful, can't violate the rules.

It's stated many times in the bible... just so's you understand the reference here, and how it relates to humanity.

I still don't get what you're trying to say. What's panning out?

To say that the God of the bible is unjust, is to say our own sense of justice is wrong. I trust that my sense of justice is correct, and I trust that the God of the bible is just.

How does one idea of justice equal the other? I do say the God of the Bible is unjust, and the way I can make this assertion is exactly because our concepts of justice and morality have evolved past those portrayed in the Bible. We (western society) don't embrace slavery, don't treat women as property, don't burn witches, don't stone people to death, and don't kill people for not believing or practicing the same religion we practice. This is an example of how secular ideals set straight the backwards laws and morals practiced and promoted by the God of the Bible.

To think justice is unchanging is to misunderstand how societal values change over time.

If you look at what the bible says you'll see that God's justice matches your own there.

I just gave you specific examples of how it doesn't.

You are of course twisting the truth to arrive at those conclusions.

Would you like specific Bible verses?

Secular ideals are fluid, and cause the injustices you cite (hence Nazi injustice).

Secular ideals allow us to evaluate every claim on its own merit and develop a sense of justice that is not only the most beneficial to society, but the one that allows the most progression. You ever wonder WHY we can acknowledge what the Nazis did as injustice? Because of secular ideals that evolve with their environment, not a divine ordered mandate made in the Bronze Age Middle East. Why is it that the Roman Catholic Church endorsed Hitler, if they knew he was acting against God's Law?

Christians do attribute justice to God, and don't use God to negate their own responsibilities. You're straying into fantasy land again. LMAO @ 'realistic'

Yes, but we don't live in a Christian theocracy, nor do we operate by the morality of the Bible. If we did, we'd still be stuck stoning people and burning witches and be completely justified in doing so. I don't think you're understanding that ideals have evolved by means of secular standards, not theistic ones. It's when you take religion OUT of the picture when we finally can gain a sense of equality and justice.

Lets factor in a timeless God, who would know the lives of said infants and their descendants. Couldn't he judge that it was merciful to end their lives? It's a question unanswerable by us, other than we know God to be just, and can trust in his actions.

Now why exactly would I trust in his actions if he's killing my child because I didn't paint lamb's blood on my door, or I just happened to live in the wrong village? God's morality as portrayed in the Bible is a fucking joke. In life, lots of things can occur. When you necessarily attribute them to an invisible deity, then say his actions were necessarily justified JUST BECAUSE he is that deity and he makes the rules doesn't make it automatically OK. Like I've said before, the killing of Jews was a necessary evil, it was not seen as murder by the Nazis. From your side of the fence, God's fine and you trust in his judgement, but from the side in which the western world operates, we have long left those broken and inconsistent forms of ideology you call God's law.

No, because we can know that God is just.

How can you know this?

God never mandates murder, only legal taking of life.

Based on criteria that in today's standards, would be considered murder.

It's become quite clear that you don't understand that the developed world DOES NOT WORK on God's Law.

Likewise rape, infanticide & torture... God cannot condone that which is contradictory to his nature. That would be impossible.

RAPE:

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

INFANTICIDE:

Exodus 12:29-30 NLT

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.

Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.

TORTURE:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 NLT

Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid.

Joshua 7:15 NLT

The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel.



There are hundreds more where this came from.

Lets consider nature. Nature doesn't function on morality, but on natural law, some of which we don't yet understand. In nature, death, and sometimes death by horrible means is a fact of life.

The law that determines death is ultimately a positive one. We consider it neither good nor bad... but really it's good... because it is what life is based upon.

We consider it neither good nor bad but it's good because I say it is. Nice.

Life, in the simplest sense, is a process in which an organism uses energy to sustain itself and attempt to reproduce. Since it isn't a 100% efficient system, energy is lost, and eventually entropy takes over and that organism ceases to function. Life can also be lost in an circumstances in which a vital part of the organism's life support is compromised. This process is amoral, as it has no say on HOW to live your life.

What morality has an effect on is how we treat each other, and how we expect to be treated in return. Saying God's Law is just because it's God administering it is special pleading, as it would be called murder in any other sense. I contend that I am more moral than the God of the Bible, and so are you. In order to come to the conclusion that God is morally just, you must first evaluate his actions by your OWN sense of morality, then make a distinction. The scary part is that you think his actions are justified, but I can't say that it's a shock.

[fr0d0]

Panning out :
to happen or be successful "He was very creative, although not all his ideas have panned out."

Secular ideals condone Nazism and also condemn Nazism. Illuminating don't you think?

The Church condoning Nazism. Do you think those we're the actions of Christ?

God's law ("Divine Bronze Age mandate")/ innate human moral sense. What's the difference? You seem to be applying some vitriol to the issue which is unwarranted, unnecessary and unhelpful.

A twisted view of anything is unhealthy yeah. In no way would I ever support you with a religious agenda. Yours looks to be the most abhorrent example of religious abuse.

You might support the abuse of the planet from our current selfishness, as dictated by your adherence to secular law. I choose to have an ideal greater than that.

Today's standards would condemn God as acting unlawfully? Really? You clearly vehemently misunderstand what I've said then. And seriously misconstrue what the bible says. But of course we know you do that.

Do you have the first understanding of how Jesus re-interpreted the law in such a was as to supplant what the laws quoted? Please research this if you want to understand. I also gave the answer today.

Nature is good because it is a positive force, and not simply because I said so. I'm repeating myself again, but as usual, you choose to ignore the point.

No one has said that God's law is just because it's 'from God'. God's law is the same as the law of nature... it's good because God is a positive force. You might call nature 'unjust' ...and that would be equally inapplicable... because we can know the wider course of nature is positive/ forward moving. Scientists recently concluded that natural disasters are a positive force that enable life to exist on this planet, for example.

You are as morally corrupt as I am. Neither of us can achieve perfect morality, which is why secularism falls short when based upon human values.