Are some people truly better off believing?

[Salacious B. Crumb]

This is an interesting discussion. My brutally honest opinion is, if the person's last resort in life is to confide in believing in an invisible man in the sky or whatever, they probably are better off not living. If they have to look forward to an afterlife, because there is absolutely nothing here giving them joy, I feel very sorry for them. Many people have a lot of restrictions in life and still find ways to enjoy it. There are things you can enjoy in life: friends, family, videogames, movies, sitting outside, listening to music, etc. If I was paralyzed in a hospital, from my neck down, I'd beg my family to pull the plug though.

Referring to Dystopia's example of his friend needing spiritual help to get through a tough time, I still don't see why you'd need god in such a desperate time of your life. I'm very glad his friend made it through of course, but my point is, why not just meditate? You can be 'spiritual', without believing in religion/god to get through a tough time. When I really needed to, I used to meditate for 30+ minutes at a time picturing myself sitting on a beach, focusing on the soothing sound of waves crashing on the shore.

Would some people be better off believing in god? I'd say no, only if they knew or could be convinced to some real solutions to better their life. Would we be better off without religion? Without a doubt.

[Whateverist]

I think the value of anything, including truth, is determined by its effect on well-being. That's what 'value' is - a measurement of how something makes us feel. Usually, knowing the truth about things helps us effectively manipulate the world to promote positive emotional states and reduce negative ones, but occasionally, a particular person believing something false will do that instead.

That can't be right.  The value to you might be what best enhances your well-being.  But the desire for the truth is also about wanting to live in the real world, to accept life on its own terms.  Not all of us would choose to take the pill which allows us to stay asleep to the real world.

I don't say everyone must share my perspective though.  Those who place a higher premium on maintaining a pre-selected truth are obviously permitted to do so.  I support their right to choose right up to the point where they try to enforce some form of Sharia law, in the USA that will more often be an attempt to impose xtian values in secular matters.

[Regina]

I think the value of anything, including truth, is determined by its effect on well-being. That's what 'value' is - a measurement of how something makes us feel. Usually, knowing the truth about things helps us effectively manipulate the world to promote positive emotional states and reduce negative ones, but occasionally, a particular person believing something false will do that instead.

That can't be right.  The value to you might be what best enhances your well-being.  But the desire for the truth is also about wanting to live in the real world, to accept life on its own terms.  Not all of us would choose to take the pill which allows us to stay asleep to the real world.

I don't say everyone must share my perspective though.  Those who place a higher premium on maintaining a pre-selected truth are obviously permitted to do so.  I support their right to choose right up to the point where they try to enforce some form of Sharia law, in the USA that will more often be an attempt to impose xtian values in secular matters.

Completely agree

I've got no objection to people wanting to believe in a creator or the afterlife and all that good jazz if they genuinely get comfort out of it. Whatever helps you sleep at night honey.

My issue is "religious law" be it Christian, Muslim or anything else. Just because you feel one way doesn't mean we all have to live by it. If I'm not part of the club, I couldn't care less what the club's rules are. I detest the idea of Sharia (or Christian equivalents, which do exist, just without an official name).

[nihilistcat]

Keep in mind, any thought experiment in this regard invariably has to deal with the fact that in the initial phases of transition to a less theistic culture, many who abruptly move to a less theistic belief system, will feel a sense of nihilism. So for at least the first generation, the consequences of abandoning theism will be unpredictable and most likely volatile.

For this reason, a gradual cultural shift (that happens over the course of two or three generations) would probably be much less disruptive. But getting rid of theism shouldn't be confused with the steps necessary to solve the problem of religious violence (since we can only control what happens in our own geographic sphere). 

Most people wish to live in peace, and are perfectly willing to live in a world with different faith systems (irrespective of the dogmas in their holy books). The problem is, in unstable societies, religious fundamentalism is given a unique opportunity to operate without much push back. This instability is supported by our own foreign policy. Our support for dictatorial regimes, destabilization of the wider middle east, etc. (over the course of the last 7 or so decades) has helped create a perfect storm. We weren't alone in our malfeasance, fundamentalist fervor preexisted our intervention, but it was the US who supported the worse of the worse, and enabled their grip on power (giving these regimes a sense that they can oppress and murder their own people with impunity). In the face of this hopelessness, a sense that they're up against overwhelming power, fundamentalism has become exceedingly widespread and macabre. 

[Foxaèr]

None.

Knowledge should always be preferable to ignorance.

I agree with the first response to the OP.  There is no reason to slip into a state of unreason.  

[Cyberman]

I read an article recently about a little four-year-old girl who hanged herself because she wanted to see her daddy in heaven. Thankfully a rare and extreme case, and I hope apocryphal, but it illustrates the fine membrane between a comforting desire for a happy conscience-salving life and an inimical one through ignorance.

[AFTT47]

Keep in mind, any thought experiment in this regard invariably has to deal with the fact that in the initial phases of transition to a less theistic culture, many who abruptly move to a less theistic belief system, will feel a sense of nihilism. So for at least the first generation, the consequences of abandoning theism will be unpredictable and most likely volatile.

Absolutely. It's not a good idea to take something like religion away from people who feel lost without it unless you can offer them something to replace it with. Obviously, a science-based worldview works for all of us but I think it's wrong to assume it will work for everybody. We just need to move away from dogmatism because of the negative effects it has on society. We don't need to get rid of religion entirely.

[Pyrrho]

This is an interesting discussion. My brutally honest opinion is, if the person's last resort in life is to confide in believing in an invisible man in the sky or whatever, they probably are better off not living. ...

It is not fashionable to say that.  But I agree with you.  A bad life is not worth living, and I hope I die before things go too far wrong.  Right now, my life is pretty good, and I have no particular reason to think it will go bad soon (though obviously, something bad could happen at any moment).

Also, people claim that some others need to believe this bullshit, but no one ever proves it.  What happens when people stop believing?  Do they disappear in a puff of smoke?

That some idiot says he needs something or other, does not mean he really needs it.

[AFTT47]

It's not for either of us to make that call for him.

[Pyrrho]

It's not for either of us to make that call for him.

If I say I need everybody to fucking kiss my ass, what do you think the response will be?  Should everyone fucking kiss my ass?

Saying one needs something means absolutely no goddamned thing.


As for whether a life is worth living or not, if that is what is bothering you, if others wish to continue a bad life, it is not a problem for me.  I do not wish to force my wishes on them.  Nevertheless, I judge a bad life to not be worth living.  That someone else chooses otherwise is their problem.