Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(June 5, 2015 at 12:00 pm)robvalue Wrote: Sure, I totally get what you're saying. But I would say those are your consequences of atheism, where you choose to take it. The fact that you are simply "an atheist" is just a matter of acknowledging the state of mind. Would you agree? Each person might need faith for whatever else they decide to do. But that's for those things, not atheism specifically.
Yes, atheism just makes it clear that judgement in all those areas requires self-reliance, and that takes faith.
Atheism itself requires no faith, and neither do I have any faith in atheism.
So my source for this distinction between belief and faith is Alan Watts, specifically his book "The Wisdom of Insecurity". Here you go.
Watts writes:
Quote:We must here make a clear distinction between belief and faith, because, in general practice, belief has come to mean a state of mind which is almost the opposite of faith. Belief, as I use the word here, is the insistence that the truth is what one would “lief” or wish it to be. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. Faith, on the other hand, is an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be. Faith has no preconceptions; it is a plunge into the unknown. Belief clings, but faith lets go. In this sense of the word, faith is the essential virtue of science, and likewise of any religion that is not self-deception.
The extended quote from Alan Watts' "The Wisdom of Insecurity", my favorite book of practical philosophy.
The present phase of human thought and history … almost compels us to face reality with open minds, and you can only know God through an open mind just as you can only see the sky through a clear window. You will not see the sky if you have covered the glass with blue paint.
But “religious” people who resist the scraping of the paint from the glass, who regard the scientific attitude with fear and mistrust, and confuse faith with clinging to certain ideas, are curiously ignorant of laws of the spiritual life which they might find in their own traditional records. A careful study of comparative religion and spiritual philosophy reveals that abandonment of belief, of any clinging to a future life for one’s own, and of any attempt to escape from finitude and mortality, is a regular and normal stage in the way of the spirit. Indeed, this is actually such a “first principle” of the spiritual life that it should have been obvious from the beginning, and it seems, after all, surprising that learned theologians should adopt anything but a cooperative attitude towards the critical philosophy of science.
[/quote]
Like with any philosophy, the usefulness of its claims starts at the usefulness of its axioms or starting "If's". there is no observational evidence that can be reliably repeated to suggest something is knowingly interacting with us and our lives. If we stick to just the definition as opposed to using "level & rows" for the words belief and faith, I little faith or belief in much. I would say atheism takes far less faith as opposed to no faith at all. I also don't do "belief" without something to support it in the way of repeatable observations. With that in mind some atheisttreat atheism like a religion in that they make claims past what is known or flat out counter observational evidence just to be "not like them" instead of looking for how the universe works with little regard for how it supports or discredits other belief sytems.
(May 23, 2015 at 12:39 pm)whateverist Wrote: I didn't expect to make this thread for a few more weeks yet. But then on my first googling I came upon this and thought it as good a place to start as any. My intention is to add more sources every week or two in the service of my over-arching goal which is to drive a wedge between the two words.
Briefly, I want to establish that faith is a receptive stance while belief is a declarative stance. Faith insists there is meaning whether or not one is capable of articulating it. Whenever you specify what it is that has meaning, you are expressing a belief. Many (but not all) Christians carry on as if life, the cosmos and identity are simple things - because they have the holy reference book of meaning called the bible. True believers are locked in a stance of espousing theirtruth. The faithful reserve the right to self correct as needed in their search for the truth. One stance grabs truth and pins it in a collection box, the other studies and marvels at it wherever it flies.
Okay, Exhibit One: from a catholic source, Dr. Gregory Popcak who distinguishes faith from belief according to what he calls the psychology of religion. (I know very little of him or his website but offer what he says on its own merits.)
Faith– Most of us think of “faith” in supernatural terms, as in “faith in God.” This is actually more of what psychologists of religion would call “belief” (see below). Faith, from a more naturalistic, psychological perspective, is merely the innate drive to search for meaning, purpose and significance.
From infancy, every human person has an innate sense that “there is something more than just me” and a drive to discover what that might be. The baby calls out for the mother even when the mother is gone from view. In the same way, all people, whether they are believers or not, seek the deeper meaning, purpose, and significance that exists in life, relationships and the things that happen to us. We recognize this basic striving as “faith” and it is a universal part of being human. Even atheists have this kind of faith. I think this is an especially useful understanding of the term because of its universality. We often hear that “faith is a gift” but when we see so many people who do not believe in God, we wonder if God simply did not gift those people with faith. The answer is that everyone has the gift of faith–that innate drive to seek meaning, purpose and significance–but some people have exercised this innate gift more than others, allowing their faith to be better defined than others.
Note I suspect he and I might have different ideas about the best way to exercise one's faith. He is probably more motivated than I to be sure faith sticks the landing into the appropriate beliefs. Wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that what he would count as the appropriate beliefs turn out to be found in the catechism. Regardless I like the way he makes the distinction between belief and faith.
The first thing I would like to say about this is you've used one source, a source that suits you and not the reality of faith and belief. There are many other Christian thoughts on this subject that do not come from such a controversial source as the Catholic hierarchy. This hierarchy has never gotten over the Protestant movement that took control away from them and ruining the agenda of control of the people. It would be more relevant to use statements from other sources within the Christian church and more ethical, too.
Now for what I've said on this forum many times and have never wavered on this knowledge. Faith is the beginning of the relationship with Christ, new Christians have little actual knowledge of God, so by faith from Him we come into an understanding of His purpose for us since the fall, the purpose of redemption for salvation by God's grace, then we either accept it or reject it. Now upon acceptance of this faith and the Son of God we are saved by our trust in this faith, the scriptures are very clear about this, from the teachings of Christ and the teachings of the disciples and Paul. No doubt has been left about this truth and so a truth has been sought and found through the gift of faith. I did alluded above that even those who do not believe received the gift of faith, they just rejected it or ignored it probably for a variety of reasons. Now the faith I'm referring to has to do with the unseen God of the Bible. You are speaking to the spiritual part of life aren't you? If so then this discussion should stay on this track. If this is not what you have intended, well I guess I'm wasting everyone's time.
Now to belief, belief comes to the Christian only if he/she wants to move forward in the relationship with Christ, yes one can stand still and still have salvation, but who wants to live on milk the rest of their life, I personally find meat enjoyable. To move forward one must study the scriptures, there is no other way, believe me I've tried them all and study is the only way to open up the mind and heart to have belief in who God is. Through the study God will reveal Himself in one's life, He will choose when and how, so the saying patience is a virtue is quite true. So faith leads to belief through the study of scripture and God's revelation to those who desire to grow in a greater relationship with Him. These are the Christians who can tell people about who God is through the experience of a relationship, those who live on faith ie. milk usually say thing that they have no idea if they are true or not and will follow a preacher instead of the teachings of the scriptures, this is sad but true for to many Christians.
Now to take this farther, knowledge, yes we can have knowledge of God, that is we can have certainty of His existence and who He is. The scriptures actually do teach this no matter what some may say, Paul teaches this over and over. Knowledge comes through a continued interest in the relationship with God. One can stop at faith or go on to belief or advance on to knowledge, I've experienced this personally and know it to be absolutely true. Those who would deny this either have no interest in God at all or are satisfied with their position with God. I find it strange that people who have faith wouldn't want to move forward and those who have belief wouldn't want a greater certainty in their relationship. So to end, knowledge is gained by continued scriptural study and revelation from God until one realizes they have come into a greater and certain knowledge of God. From here the sky is the limit, in other words there is no limit to knowing Him.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
June 10, 2015 at 6:35 pm (This post was last modified: June 10, 2015 at 6:41 pm by Whateverist.)
(June 10, 2015 at 3:05 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(May 23, 2015 at 12:39 pm)whateverist Wrote:
I didn't expect to make this thread for a few more weeks yet. But then on my first googling I came upon this and thought it as good a place to start as any. My intention is to add more sources every week or two in the service of my over-arching goal which is to drive a wedge between the two words.
Briefly, I want to establish that faith is a receptive stance while belief is a declarative stance. Faith insists there is meaning whether or not one is capable of articulating it. Whenever you specify what it is that has meaning, you are expressing a belief. Many (but not all) Christians carry on as if life, the cosmos and identity are simple things - because they have the holy reference book of meaning called the bible. True believers are locked in a stance of espousing theirtruth. The faithful reserve the right to self correct as needed in their search for the truth. One stance grabs truth and pins it in a collection box, the other studies and marvels at it wherever it flies.
Okay, Exhibit One: from a catholic source, Dr. Gregory Popcak who distinguishes faith from belief according to what he calls the psychology of religion. (I know very little of him or his website but offer what he says on its own merits.)
[hide] Faith– Most of us think of “faith” in supernatural terms, as in “faith in God.” This is actually more of what psychologists of religion would call “belief” (see below). Faith, from a more naturalistic, psychological perspective, is merely the innate drive to search for meaning, purpose and significance.
From infancy, every human person has an innate sense that “there is something more than just me” and a drive to discover what that might be. The baby calls out for the mother even when the mother is gone from view. In the same way, all people, whether they are believers or not, seek the deeper meaning, purpose, and significance that exists in life, relationships and the things that happen to us. We recognize this basic striving as “faith” and it is a universal part of being human. Even atheists have this kind of faith. I think this is an especially useful understanding of the term because of its universality. We often hear that “faith is a gift” but when we see so many people who do not believe in God, we wonder if God simply did not gift those people with faith. The answer is that everyone has the gift of faith–that innate drive to seek meaning, purpose and significance–but some people have exercised this innate gift more than others, allowing their faith to be better defined than others.
Note I suspect he and I might have different ideas about the best way to exercise one's faith. He is probably more motivated than I to be sure faith sticks the landing into the appropriate beliefs. Wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that what he would count as the appropriate beliefs turn out to be found in the catechism. Regardless I like the way he makes the distinction between belief and faith.
The first thing I would like to say about this is you've used one source, a source that suits you and not the reality of faith and belief. There are many other Christian thoughts on this subject that do not come from such a controversial source as the Catholic hierarchy. This hierarchy has never gotten over the Protestant movement that took control away from them and ruining the agenda of control of the people. It would be more relevant to use statements from other sources within the Christian church and more ethical, too.
Yes I chose this source because it suits the distinction I wish to make between "belief" and "faith". I see the former as stubborn, egotistical clinging to that about which one has already made up his mind. The latter is receptive and better fits our actual epistemic position.
I chose this quote because I didn't want to get to the Watts' quote until I would have more time for it, which I do now. The Watts' quote is the best formulation for the way I see it, and my view comes from that book, The Wisdom of Insecurity, which I read some 40 years ago.
I don't have a dog in the fight between the catholic and protestant branches of the Christian faith. I will try soon to find writers from other denominations as well as other religions. But by all means, feel free to post any sources you wish if you'd like to argue for a different distinction between belief and faith.
(June 10, 2015 at 3:05 pm)Godschild Wrote: Now for what I've said on this forum many times and have never wavered on this knowledge. Faith is the beginning of the relationship with Christ, new Christians have little actual knowledge of God, so by faith from Him we come into an understanding of His purpose for us since the fall, the purpose of redemption for salvation by God's grace, then we either accept it or reject it. Now upon acceptance of this faith and the Son of God we are saved by our trust in this faith, the scriptures are very clear about this, from the teachings of Christ and the teachings of the disciples and Paul. No doubt has been left about this truth and so a truth has been sought and found through the gift of faith. I did alluded above that even those who do not believe received the gift of faith, they just rejected it or ignored it probably for a variety of reasons. Now the faith I'm referring to has to do with the unseen God of the Bible. You are speaking to the spiritual part of life aren't you? If so then this discussion should stay on this track. If this is not what you have intended, well I guess I'm wasting everyone's time.
Now to belief, belief comes to the Christian only if he/she wants to move forward in the relationship with Christ, yes one can stand still and still have salvation, but who wants to live on milk the rest of their life, I personally find meat enjoyable. To move forward one must study the scriptures, there is no other way, believe me I've tried them all and study is the only way to open up the mind and heart to have belief in who God is. Through the study God will reveal Himself in one's life, He will choose when and how, so the saying patience is a virtue is quite true. So faith leads to belief through the study of scripture and God's revelation to those who desire to grow in a greater relationship with Him. These are the Christians who can tell people about who God is through the experience of a relationship, those who live on faith ie. milk usually say thing that they have no idea if they are true or not and will follow a preacher instead of the teachings of the scriptures, this is sad but true for to many Christians.
Now to take this farther, knowledge, yes we can have knowledge of God, that is we can have certainty of His existence and who He is. The scriptures actually do teach this no matter what some may say, Paul teaches this over and over. Knowledge comes through a continued interest in the relationship with God. One can stop at faith or go on to belief or advance on to knowledge, I've experienced this personally and know it to be absolutely true. Those who would deny this either have no interest in God at all or are satisfied with their position with God. I find it strange that people who have faith wouldn't want to move forward and those who have belief wouldn't want a greater certainty in their relationship. So to end, knowledge is gained by continued scriptural study and revelation from God until one realizes they have come into a greater and certain knowledge of God. From here the sky is the limit, in other words there is no limit to knowing Him.
GC
This will sound to most people here, as it does to me, like the chestnut: just open yourself to faith and certainty will follow. Somehow I think that only works if you want it to work. That makes me immune. I'm not shopping for an unsupported, super naturally based belief system to answer even questions which may make no sense. But I welcome you to the thread.
If you have the time to read the book, I can't help but wonder what if any impact it would have on what you think. (Probably none?)
(May 23, 2015 at 12:39 pm)whateverist Wrote: I didn't expect to make this thread for a few more weeks yet. But then on my first googling I came upon this and thought it as good a place to start as any. My intention is to add more sources every week or two in the service of my over-arching goal which is to drive a wedge between the two words.
Briefly, I want to establish that faith is a receptive stance while belief is a declarative stance. Faith insists there is meaning whether or not one is capable of articulating it. Whenever you specify what it is that has meaning, you are expressing a belief. Many (but not all) Christians carry on as if life, the cosmos and identity are simple things - because they have the holy reference book of meaning called the bible. True believers are locked in a stance of espousing theirtruth. The faithful reserve the right to self correct as needed in their search for the truth. One stance grabs truth and pins it in a collection box, the other studies and marvels at it wherever it flies.
Okay, Exhibit One: from a catholic source, Dr. Gregory Popcak who distinguishes faith from belief according to what he calls the psychology of religion. (I know very little of him or his website but offer what he says on its own merits.)
Faith– Most of us think of “faith” in supernatural terms, as in “faith in God.” This is actually more of what psychologists of religion would call “belief” (see below). Faith, from a more naturalistic, psychological perspective, is merely the innate drive to search for meaning, purpose and significance.
From infancy, every human person has an innate sense that “there is something more than just me” and a drive to discover what that might be. The baby calls out for the mother even when the mother is gone from view. In the same way, all people, whether they are believers or not, seek the deeper meaning, purpose, and significance that exists in life, relationships and the things that happen to us. We recognize this basic striving as “faith” and it is a universal part of being human. Even atheists have this kind of faith. I think this is an especially useful understanding of the term because of its universality. We often hear that “faith is a gift” but when we see so many people who do not believe in God, we wonder if God simply did not gift those people with faith. The answer is that everyone has the gift of faith–that innate drive to seek meaning, purpose and significance–but some people have exercised this innate gift more than others, allowing their faith to be better defined than others.
Note I suspect he and I might have different ideas about the best way to exercise one's faith. He is probably more motivated than I to be sure faith sticks the landing into the appropriate beliefs. Wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that what he would count as the appropriate beliefs turn out to be found in the catechism. Regardless I like the way he makes the distinction between belief and faith.
The first thing I would like to say about this is you've used one source, a source that suits you and not the reality of faith and belief. There are many other Christian thoughts on this subject that do not come from such a controversial source as the Catholic hierarchy. This hierarchy has never gotten over the Protestant movement that took control away from them and ruining the agenda of control of the people. It would be more relevant to use statements from other sources within the Christian church and more ethical, too.
Now for what I've said on this forum many times and have never wavered on this knowledge. Faith is the beginning of the relationship with Christ, new Christians have little actual knowledge of God, so by faith from Him we come into an understanding of His purpose for us since the fall, the purpose of redemption for salvation by God's grace, then we either accept it or reject it. Now upon acceptance of this faith and the Son of God we are saved by our trust in this faith, the scriptures are very clear about this, from the teachings of Christ and the teachings of the disciples and Paul. No doubt has been left about this truth and so a truth has been sought and found through the gift of faith. I did alluded above that even those who do not believe received the gift of faith, they just rejected it or ignored it probably for a variety of reasons. Now the faith I'm referring to has to do with the unseen God of the Bible. You are speaking to the spiritual part of life aren't you? If so then this discussion should stay on this track. If this is not what you have intended, well I guess I'm wasting everyone's time.
Now to belief, belief comes to the Christian only if he/she wants to move forward in the relationship with Christ, yes one can stand still and still have salvation, but who wants to live on milk the rest of their life, I personally find meat enjoyable. To move forward one must study the scriptures, there is no other way, believe me I've tried them all and study is the only way to open up the mind and heart to have belief in who God is. Through the study God will reveal Himself in one's life, He will choose when and how, so the saying patience is a virtue is quite true. So faith leads to belief through the study of scripture and God's revelation to those who desire to grow in a greater relationship with Him. These are the Christians who can tell people about who God is through the experience of a relationship, those who live on faith ie. milk usually say thing that they have no idea if they are true or not and will follow a preacher instead of the teachings of the scriptures, this is sad but true for to many Christians.
Now to take this farther, knowledge, yes we can have knowledge of God, that is we can have certainty of His existence and who He is. The scriptures actually do teach this no matter what some may say, Paul teaches this over and over. Knowledge comes through a continued interest in the relationship with God. One can stop at faith or go on to belief or advance on to knowledge, I've experienced this personally and know it to be absolutely true. Those who would deny this either have no interest in God at all or are satisfied with their position with God. I find it strange that people who have faith wouldn't want to move forward and those who have belief wouldn't want a greater certainty in their relationship. So to end, knowledge is gained by continued scriptural study and revelation from God until one realizes they have come into a greater and certain knowledge of God. From here the sky is the limit, in other words there is no limit to knowing Him.
GC
blind faith, personal emotional faith, or faith by somebody else do not answer questions to seek understanding. Some would rather dismiss observations that counter the safety of their world view.
Quote:The understanding that I am most familiar with - a Protestant understanding, if it matters, is that "belief" is an intellectual belief, while "faith" is a matter of trust that leads to action.
This can be summed up in an illustration of Charles Blondin, a tightrope walker who asks a crowd if they believe that he can safely walk a wheelbarrow across Niagara Falls on a tightrope. Many in the crowd ask who believes that he can do this, and of course, most say that they do. Then he asks who is willing to get into the wheelbarrow. Only those whose "belief" reaches the point of faith will get in.
This fits pretty well with Watts' definitions. Any thoughts?
Quote:The understanding that I am most familiar with - a Protestant understanding, if it matters, is that "belief" is an intellectual belief, while "faith" is a matter of trust that leads to action.
This can be summed up in an illustration of Charles Blondin, a tightrope walker who asks a crowd if they believe that he can safely walk a wheelbarrow across Niagara Falls on a tightrope. Many in the crowd ask who believes that he can do this, and of course, most say that they do. Then he asks who is willing to get into the wheelbarrow. Only those whose "belief" reaches the point of faith will get in.
This fits pretty well with Watts' definitions. Any thoughts?
I can see and understand how people accept this as the way faith and belief works, however those examples are referring to the physical and I was under the impression this was a spiritual endeavor. Let's look at this physical example, you see a chair to set in it looks sound so do you believe it's safe to set in or do you have faith it's safe to set in? To have faith in it you wouldn't need to examine it, you would sit. Now to believe it's safe wouldn't it be necessary to at least examine the chair to some degree before sitting in it. Does not belief contain some solid evidence, while faith is trusting without seeing, this seems to me to be the the correct order for Christianity as I see it. Also the wheelbarrow deal left out one important fact, someone would be in the wheel barrow, that fact would make the trip across the tightrope much more difficult, anyone who has ever rolled a empty wheelbarrow vs. a full wheelbarrow can attest to this. So, I believe we need to keep things in a real perspective when trying to examine the spiritual through the physical, that's why I gave the old chair analogy it fits better with reality.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
June 11, 2015 at 3:36 pm (This post was last modified: June 11, 2015 at 3:51 pm by Whateverist.)
GC - your last post put me in mind of a bit of writing by e.e. cummings about a man who sits on a chair on a tightrope and sways. In the process of looking for that quote I found this other I like even better. I'm pretty certain it comes from his "Six Non-lectures", one of my three favorite books.
Quote:Mostpeople fancy a guaranteed birthproof safetysuit of nondestructible selflessness. If mostpeople were to be born twice they'd improbably call it dying-
you and I are not snobs. We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:the mystery which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves. You and I wear the dangerous looseness of doom and find it becoming. Life,for eternal us,is now;and now is much too busy being a little more than everything to seem anything,catastrophic included.
I think the "most-people" he finds fault with include true-believers. Their "birth proof safety-suit" consists of the beliefs they cling to which guarantee they will never be renewed by a new and larger vision. For them the thought of such a re-birth can only be felt as a loss. Since they so identify with their beliefs, anything which threatens them entails what they feel to be their death.
But people who embrace the mystery are not snobbish about their existing beliefs. "We" leave our beliefs at risk and do not identify with them in such a way. We welcome the rebirth of a better world view or paradigm change. More light, more inclusion, more understanding .. we just say let it be. Let what is limiting and mistaken fall away and let my new self move forward. In death is life, not catastrophe.
![[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUjRiLcIPLs-t1ztXulQF...gee7UVOVO7]](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q387/Christopher-Cody/axe%252520hatchet%252520pics%2525201/006-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bladesandbushlore.com/index.php?topic%3D3201.0&h=768&w=1024&tbnid=zx637_vblo0UpM:&zoom=1&docid=CPeIIFPD20EJVM&ei=nqxgVY-DOorVoATJloC4BA&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CEcQMyggMCA)
