Posts: 7140
Threads: 12
Joined: March 14, 2013
Reputation:
72
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 24, 2015 at 7:49 pm
Indeed. The nice thing about being an atheist is that I don't have to belong to a group or recognize a leader, nor make excuses for people who are both atheist and stupid. It's a nice freedom to have.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 25, 2015 at 4:42 am
(This post was last modified: May 25, 2015 at 4:44 am by robvalue.)
Maybe one day atheists can just be called people, rather than people who don't believe in [insert your favourite magical buddy and optional storybook].
I get really sick of the idea that all atheists hold responsibility for the actions of each other. Of course I condemn any action anyone takes that I think is immoral. But I can't "leave atheism as a protest" now can I? Or try and "clean up atheism"? I can try and improve society, which is what I do anyway, in what little capacity I am able.
Posts: 400
Threads: 0
Joined: November 4, 2014
Reputation:
3
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 25, 2015 at 7:31 am
(This post was last modified: May 25, 2015 at 7:43 am by comet.)
(May 25, 2015 at 4:42 am)robvalue Wrote: Maybe one day atheists can just be called people, rather than people who don't believe in [insert your favourite magical buddy and optional storybook].
I get really sick of the idea that all atheists hold responsibility for the actions of each other. Of course I condemn any action anyone takes that I think is immoral. But I can't "leave atheism as a protest" now can I? Or try and "clean up atheism"? I can try and improve society, which is what I do anyway, in what little capacity I am able.
Cleaning up society means cleaning up people. That means police your own too.
(May 24, 2015 at 7:29 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Atheists are people, and therefore flawed, film at 11.
And, given that religion is an enterprise built on creating and manipulating the emotions of others, and that many people here were subjected to such, is it any surprise that some reactions are visceral? People don't like feeling exploited.
(May 24, 2015 at 5:56 pm)comet Wrote: Logical fallacy is a bullshit philosophy term for people that don't know what they are talking about.
The End
You're quite wrong, but thanks for playing.
If you need "logical fallacy" to show somebody they are wrong, neither of the debaters know what they are talking about. I haven't seen one example were that isn't true. Line up what you know. Draw a conclusion off of those "facts". "logical fallacy" never comes up between two people that know what they are talking about.
The only place it comes into plays in hypothetical's. IE making shit up. And even then it doesn't need to be present if you put a limit on what shit you are allowed to make up.
anti-logical Fallacies of Ambiguity
Posts: 20476
Threads: 447
Joined: June 16, 2014
Reputation:
111
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 25, 2015 at 7:48 am
"Logical fallacy is a bullshit philosophy term for people that don't know what they are talking about"
Mate, this is gold! It will become my new signature...
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Posts: 3541
Threads: 0
Joined: January 20, 2015
Reputation:
35
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 25, 2015 at 8:29 am
(May 25, 2015 at 7:31 am)comet Wrote: Cleaning up society means cleaning up people. That means police your own too.
"My own"? Just because someone happens to agree with me on a single point - that there's no god - does NOT make them "my own". Atheists are not a tribe, nor a club. We're individuals, responsible for ourselves.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 25, 2015 at 8:30 am
(This post was last modified: May 25, 2015 at 8:31 am by robvalue.)
How exactly do I "police my own"? I'm not the police. I have nothing to do with any atheist in particular except that we share one disbelief. How am I any more responsible for them than I am for theists? There are no agreed rules of conduct to be discussed.
Like I say, I try and do my best by all of society. I will call out atheists as well as theists when they do something wrong. I have no power to tell atheists what to do.
Posts: 3541
Threads: 0
Joined: January 20, 2015
Reputation:
35
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 25, 2015 at 8:32 am
(May 25, 2015 at 7:31 am)comet Wrote: If you need "logical fallacy" to show somebody they are wrong, neither of the debaters know what they are talking about. I haven't seen one example were that isn't true. Line up what you know. Draw a conclusion off of those "facts". "logical fallacy" never comes up between two people that know what they are talking about.
[...]
Wow. That's just stupid... I'm lost for words. I blame your parents for not giving you education. You're going to have to make those fonts even smaller if they're supposed to match your intellect...
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 25, 2015 at 9:34 am
Logical fallacies are shorthand. Like instead of a referee going into great detail about all the specific rules of offside every time, they have a hand signal and a word for it. Especially useful when someone keeps using the same broken logic over and over. To just state the fallacy and say nothing else can be unhelpful, I agree.
Posts: 5466
Threads: 36
Joined: November 10, 2014
Reputation:
53
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 26, 2015 at 1:30 pm
(May 25, 2015 at 7:31 am)comet Wrote: If you need "logical fallacy" to show somebody they are wrong, neither of the debaters know what they are talking about. I haven't seen one example were that isn't true. Line up what you know. Draw a conclusion off of those "facts". "logical fallacy" never comes up between two people that know what they are talking about.
The only place it comes into plays in hypothetical's. IE making shit up. And even then it doesn't need to be present if you put a limit on what shit you are allowed to make up.
Logical fallacies come into play during the argument phase, you dolt. When people have the evidence, but are drawing erroneous conclusions based on, you guessed it, fallacious thinking. Sometimes the fallacy is in focusing on a detail and misrepresenting it as the core of an argument. Sometimes the fallacy is mistaking correlation with causation. Sometimes the fallacy is in attempting to shield something from criticism when it should, in fact, be criticized.
Gathering facts is only one part of the process. The next part is interpreting them in a rational manner. If you were half as smart as you try to portray yourself as being, you'd know this. Logic exists. Your denial of it doesn't negate its existence.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
Posts: 432
Threads: 58
Joined: May 23, 2015
Reputation:
13
RE: My follow up to my other thread...
May 26, 2015 at 10:01 pm
(May 24, 2015 at 1:20 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'm happy to discuss, but I don't know what your point is. You're saying everyone should own up to being fallible? I totally agree. There's nothing more frustrating than debating someone who literally says they can't be wrong about something.
I am an atheist. I am also a human being. I try to make logical arguments without throwing in ad hominem. I think in most cases I succeed. As much as I admire the fictional character Spock and his fictional species of Vulcans, I am no Vulcan. I get emotional sometimes. I have little patience for nonsense and willful ignorance. Sometimes I cuss like a sailor when I am really pissed off. When I am right and I know it I back it up with facts. If I am wrong about something and it is either pointed out to me or I realize I committed an error, I man up and admit it and correct myself. If I don't know anything for certain I either say so or not say anything. Some things I do not take personal, other things I may take personal. Just depends on what it is and if it is worth replying to. I can be an ass without meaning to be one. If I am an ass to anyone, just call me out on it. I don't mind.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."--Thomas Jefferson
|
