Are Deists more like theists or Atheist?

[Twisted]

was Einstein a deist or an Atheist? what's the point of believing in a deist God?

[robvalue]

I'll leave others to say exactly what Einstein was as I'm not totally sure.

I too have no idea what the actual point of a deist belief is, it's something that baffles me. But then, belief is not a choice. I'd certainly say deism is generally much closer to atheism than religious theism. It generally supposes a model where things are exactly like an atheist would expect, except "a god" got things rolling before the Big Bang, instead of "we don't know what happened". So it's kind of just relabelling "We don't know" for personal preference, I think. Maybe for emotional reasons, maybe philosophical reasons, maybe logical reasons that I can't fathom. As Deist Paladin has shown, it can be pragmatic to put forward this belief as a way of cutting through bullshit arguments about whether there is a god and get straight to "What makes you think God happens to be exactly like a character in your favourite story book?"

I mean no disrespect to deists. It's just my own incredulity, and I totally respect their belief that there was "some big force" behind everything. And if that's what they believe, then they are only being honest in saying so, whether or not they feel they can rationalise it.

[Saxmoof]

It basically comes down to whether you define an atheist as someone who just isn't religious or as someone who doesn't believe there's a god. I go with the former personally, I class agnostics and deists as atheists due to them not being part of a religion

As for the point of believing in a deist god, I think deists have the same want to believe in an all powerful governing force in the universe, which is an understandable thing to want to believe, but they find the idea of people knowing what god thinks, looks like, wants us to do with our genitals etc. ridiculous

[ignoramus]

So a deist is only half full of it?
They believe in a more realistic approach to the "fucking impossible!"

[Pyrrho]

I'll leave others to say exactly what Einstein was as I'm not totally sure.

I too have no idea what the actual point of a deist belief is, it's something that baffles me. But then, belief is not a choice. I'd certainly say deism is generally much closer to atheism than religious theism. It generally supposes a model where things are exactly like an atheist would expect, except "a god" got things rolling before the Big Bang, instead of "we don't know what happened". So it's kind of just relabelling "We don't know" for personal preference, I think. Maybe for emotional reasons, maybe philosophical reasons, maybe logical reasons that I can't fathom. As Deist Paladin has shown, it can be pragmatic to put forward this belief as a way of cutting through bullshit arguments about whether there is a god and get straight to "What makes you think God happens to be exactly like a character in your favourite story book?"

I mean no disrespect to deists. It's just my own incredulity, and I totally respect their belief that there was "some big force" behind everything. And if that's what they believe, then they are only being honest in saying so, whether or not they feel they can rationalise it.

Historically, a lot of people seem to have been deists before modern theories of evolution and before the big bang theory was put forth.  In other words, it was due to some people being unable to think of how else the universe and life got started, and they were unwilling to just say that they had no idea.  But they could see that the miracle stories were silly, and so they were not full-fledged religionists either.

Now, there is no longer the same motive to be a deist that there was 200 years ago.  But really, they ought to have just said that they did not know how the universe started.  Of course, they might also have been "deists" in word only, as they may have wanted to avoid upsetting their neighbors too much.


As for what Einstein believed, he, too, lived in an era when saying that one is just an atheist was not socially acceptable.  So it is hard to know what he believed on this point.  Clearly, he was not a traditional religionist, but that is not the same as being sure he was a complete atheist either.  His own statements are not altogether clear on what his beliefs were, though, of course, some of the changes over time could have been due to him changing his mind.  See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Eins...ious_views

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_v...t_Einstein

[robvalue]

My impression is that he had some sort of "the universe/nature is God" kind of belief.

[Jenny A]

Deist appears to be a rather broad umbrella. My husband calls himself a deist. He means that he believes that there is higher power of some kind "out there." He doesn't think it has any interest people or that it is necessarily omnipotent or aware of everything. It's a disinterested higher power. Also he doesn't claim to be able to prove it or that it is provable. If you claimed to have evidence of such a being he'd be highly skeptical. He does not consider our lack of knowledge proof of such a being. It's a gut feeling not a rationally held belief and he knows it.

Practically speaking though, he's just a hair's breadth from atheist. He belief does not affect his behavior, or his skepticism about woo generally.

[Pyrrho]

My impression is that he had some sort of "the universe/nature is God" kind of belief.

He did say that, but some of his comments don't really fit the idea that he believed that.

Einstein's views about religious belief have been collected from interviews and original writings. He called himself an agnostic, while disassociating himself from the label atheist.[107] He said he believed in the "pantheistic" God of Baruch Spinoza, but not in a personal god, a belief he criticized.[108][109] Einstein once wrote: "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but expressed it clearly".[110]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Eins...ious_views

Agnosticism, deism, and atheism[edit]


Einstein was not an atheist, explaining at one point: "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal god is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."[1] According to Prince Hubertus, Einstein said, "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."[19]


Einstein had previously explored the belief that man could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in 1930 in G. S. Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great, Einstein, in response to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist, explained:

Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.[20]

In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."[21]


According to biographer Walter Isaacson, Einstein was more inclined to denigrate atheists than religious people.[22] Einstein said in correspondence, "[T]he fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres."[22][23] Although he did not believe in a personal God, he indicated that he would never seek to combat such belief because "such a belief seems to me preferable to the lack of any transcendental outlook."[24]


In 1945 Guy Raner, Jr. wrote a letter to Einstein, asking him if it was true that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein to convert from atheism. Einstein replied, "I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist. ... It is always misleading to use anthropomorphical concepts in dealing with things outside the human sphere—childish analogies. We have to admire in humility the beautiful harmony of the structure of this world—as far as we can grasp it, and that is all."[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_v...t_Einstein


Notice the last paragraph.  One can call him a pantheist, an agnostic, or an atheist, with some degree of accuracy.  What one cannot properly call him is a traditional religionist (not Christian, Jew, etc.).


Edited to add:

I suppose if I were to try to briefly categorize Einstein, I would call him an "agnostic."  If that did not satisfy, and if I were inclined to be indulgent, I would probably say he was a weak atheist, with pantheistic leanings.

[DeistPaladin]

was Einstein a deist or an Atheist? what's the point of believing in a deist God?

As I've said elsewhere, deism is mostly atheism with poetic flourishes. 

Certainly as far as practical application goes (how we live, how we learn, where we gain our sense of morality and purpose, etc) there isn't any difference I can see. I don't even believe in an afterlife. 

The point of believing in a deist God is I get to identify with great thinkers from history who had fantastic hair. 

[Secular Elf]

I'll leave others to say exactly what Einstein was as I'm not totally sure.

I too have no idea what the actual point of a deist belief is, it's something that baffles me. But then, belief is not a choice. I'd certainly say deism is generally much closer to atheism than religious theism. It generally supposes a model where things are exactly like an atheist would expect, except "a god" got things rolling before the Big Bang, instead of "we don't know what happened". So it's kind of just relabelling "We don't know" for personal preference, I think. Maybe for emotional reasons, maybe philosophical reasons, maybe logical reasons that I can't fathom. As Deist Paladin has shown, it can be pragmatic to put forward this belief as a way of cutting through bullshit arguments about whether there is a god and get straight to "What makes you think God happens to be exactly like a character in your favourite story book?"

I mean no disrespect to deists. It's just my own incredulity, and I totally respect their belief that there was "some big force" behind everything. And if that's what they believe, then they are only being honest in saying so, whether or not they feel they can rationalise it.

Historically, a lot of people seem to have been deists before modern theories of evolution and before the big bang theory was put forth.  In other words, it was due to some people being unable to think of how else the universe and life got started, and they were unwilling to just say that they had no idea.  But they could see that the miracle stories were silly, and so they were not full-fledged religionists either.

Now, there is no longer the same motive to be a deist that there was 200 years ago.  But really, they ought to have just said that they did not know how the universe started.  Of course, they might also have been "deists" in word only, as they may have wanted to avoid upsetting their neighbors too much.


As for what Einstein believed, he, too, lived in an era when saying that one is just an atheist was not socially acceptable.  So it is hard to know what he believed on this point.  Clearly, he was not a traditional religionist, but that is not the same as being sure he was a complete atheist either.  His own statements are not altogether clear on what his beliefs were, though, of course, some of the changes over time could have been due to him changing his mind.  See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Eins...ious_views

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_v...t_Einstein

As far as I know about Deism, the history of it goes back to the late Middle Ages into the Age of Enlightenment.  I have a DVD college course from The Teaching Company (used to be called The Great Courses, purchase DVDs with college profs giving lectures on any subject you want to learn about, I get the catalogs in the mail all the time) about the Philosophy of Religion.  I took notes when I watched it, but can't find them now (the house is in a damn mess).  So to the best of my recollection, there were some Christians, Muslims, and Jews who were growing tired of all the religious wars going on in Europe so they began thinking out of the box, and started talking, reading, and writing treatises among themselves regarding their philosophical thoughts about god, religion, and keeping the peace among all the monotheists.  And that is how Deism was born.  I can't remember all the particulars, but if I ever run across my notes I will come back to this thread and post them, unless anyone else knows exactly what I am writing about here and beats me to the punch before this thread gets too old for me to legally comment on.