Lessons from "Pray away the gay camp"

[Chad32]

It boggles the mind that people can open up a book that says slavery, rape, genocide, and human sacrifice is ok under certain conditions, but homosexuality is an abomination, and yet claim to have the moral high ground when they pull crap like this. Anyone who thinks that if we allow homosexuality that there won't be any straight people left are implying that they and every man they know are gay, and the only reason they screw women is because they'll get in trouble otherwise.

[SteelCurtain]

Ew... just eww. That poor kid.

"I realized very quickly that my hurt should not be directed at my parents. The only way that I can say that my mother heard my screams in the other room and didn't run in is because she thought those screams were necessary to save my eternal soul. She was wrong, and she should not have done it, but she thought it was right. I have to respect that decision."

(bold mine)
I get not hating your mother, but fuck respecting the decision to have your child tortured.

He's stronger than I am. I don't know that I ever could have forgiven my parents for sending me to torture and potentially ruining my chances for a healthy relationship.

[robvalue]

Yeah, no way.

If you want to spend your life believing nonsense and tormenting yourself over things that there's nothing wrong with, that's up to you. But once you have a kid, you're responsible for its wellbeing and it's time to place that above the edicts of your cult. If you can't do that, as has been said, don't have them.

[Pyrrho]

It's just so very sad.  I've never understood how religious faith, something that has at most an uneven grasp on reality and morality, can drive parents to do these things to their kids.

It is the power of belief.  If one lived in a world in which being gay would mean that one would end up being tortured forever in hell, wouldn't it be better to torture them a little now to avoid the greater torture later?  Even if the chance of it working were small?

It is the same reasoning that "justified" the Inquisition.  Torturing people now, to save them from eternal torture in hell, is doing them a favor.

The only reason you don't approve of these kinds of actions is because you do not have the relevant beliefs.  If you did, you would be on board with the idea that, under certain circumstances, torturing people is a good thing.


Some of you write as if you did not understand that people actually believe these kinds of things.  What one believes affects one's actions.  And one's actions affect others.  This is why people's personal beliefs are a matter of public concern.

For more on this idea, you might want to look at what the philosopher William Kingdon Clifford had to say about the ethics of belief in his aptly titled essay, "The Ethics of Belief."  At the following link, you can find it and also a more famous essay that is a response to Clifford, and a less famous essay that is a response to the response:

http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm

[robvalue]

You're right, I think having never been under the influence I sometimes find it hard to get into the theist mindset. It just really grates on me that there isn't something inside these people that gets them to realize the fucked up nature of what they are doing, when it goes this far.

But I suppose I have to accept that logic, they think a bit of torture now will save more torture later. This is what makes religion so dangerous, and why education is extremely important.

[Pyrrho]

Yes, religion is very dangerous.  It makes a great deal of difference what people believe, both for themselves, as well as for those who are affected by them.

None of this is to suggest that some beliefs should be illegal, which would be an absurd idea, as one cannot control what people believe by outlawing a belief.  The law should be about actions, which is how the Inquisition was stopped (and also explains why it was stopped at different times in different countries).  Of course, the law did not stop religious people from wanting an Inquisition.

As for how that relates to this thread, it should be illegal to torture people to convert them from gay to straight.  But such laws will not eliminate the motive for it.  Just the ability to do it with impunity.  Assuming, of course, that there are such laws and that they are enforced.

The main point of my original post was, to understand why someone would do the things that they do, all one has to do is understand that they believe certain things.  If one believes something, one regards it as true.  One regards it as an accurate representation of reality.  If they did not regard it as an accurate representation of reality, if they did not regard it as true, they would not believe it, because that is what it means to believe something.

Of course, beliefs are not the only thing relevant to what someone does.  One's desires are a big part as well.  If the religious parents did not care about their children, then they would likely not regard it as important to torture their children to prevent them from going to hell.  It may seem ironic that parents who had the relevant beliefs, but did not care about their children, might not torture their children.

Another factor in what people do is, of course, how the world really is.  If someone wants to fly off the top of a building, and if one believes one can fly, one will likely leap off of a tall building.  But such a person still won't actually fly.  But their beliefs and desires will get them to attempt to do things.  Success or failure, though, involves more than just an attempt.