Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[Randy Carson]

I already pointed out that a resurrection goes against biology, but the Gary Habermas clone replied, "I'm not talking about a natural cause, I'm talking about a supernatural cause." What a joke. Special pleading is funny stuff.
He still hasn't given an argument for holding one supernatural explanation as more likely than another. We still don't know why we are to hold supernatural explanations more likely than not either. Nor do we know why we are to hold one irregularity more likely than others.

What a load of crap. It is a book of myth. Nobody survives death. Period!

Harry Potter doesn't explain air flight either.

I have presented five facts which even non-believing scholars accept as true.

What is your explanation of them?

[Randy Carson]

CONCLUSION: JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD

In this thread, we have examined five "minimal facts" that are almost universally accepted by New Testament Scholars - believers and skeptics alike.

Fact 1: Jesus did by crucifixion. Jesus was killed by experienced, professional Roman soldiers under the orders of Pontius Pilate. He did not survive the crucifixion.

Fact 2: The disciples were transformed by their firm conviction that they had seen Jesus alive after the crucifixion. Many of them suffered greatly and endured martyrdom rather than deny their belief.

Fact 3: Paul, the deadly enemy of the Church, was suddenly converted and became Jesus' greatest evangelist. Paul endured great hardships, endured much suffering, and became a martyr rather than deny his belief.

Fact 4: James, the skeptical brother who doubted Jesus for years, was suddenly converted and became the leader of Jesus' followers in Jerusalem. James served the Christian Church valiantly, endured much suffering, and became a martyr rather than deny his belief.

Fact 5: The tomb of Jesus was found empty. And the only theory put forth by anyone for hundreds of years afterward was that proposed by his enemies; namely, that the disciples stole the body - a theory which provides independent enemy attestation that the tomb was empty.

Summing up, we see that the gospel narratives are well-supported by non-biblical sources. Jesus was crucified, died and was buried. Subsequently, Jesus' own followers, his enemy, Paul, and his unbelieving brother, James, all claimed to have seen him, and these appearances transformed them all irrevocably. These appearances, coupled with the fact that Jesus' tomb was found empty, indicate that Jesus' appearances were physical in nature and not mere hallucinations or visions. As a result, the theory that provides the best explanation of the five facts is that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead just as he had promised. "He is risen!" (Mk 16:6)

"Anticlimactic" doesn't even begin to cover the fucks I don't give about your conclusion.  Still, I hope you enjoyed yourself.

Do you have an alternate theory which explains the five facts?

[Randy Carson]

So......Your finale grande is just a reassertion of what you've already said multiple times in this thread?

Color me unsurprised with a hint of le sigh

Now that you have seen the material that supports the five facts which scholars of all faith positions accept, do you have a theory which explains them?

[Longhorn]

That's all you got? REALLY? 'You can't make up a story I would accept, therefore I'm right'?

Nope, sorry. Doesn't work that way.

I lost my keys, then found them in the basement which was locked and nobody could've gained access to it, and my cat was restless. My theory is that it was a magical sentient cauliflower on a pogo stick. Do you need to have a better theory to dismiss mine as improbable?

[rexbeccarox]

I'm still waiting for five facts.

[Pizza]

I already pointed out that a resurrection goes against biology, but the Gary Habermas clone replied, "I'm not talking about a natural cause, I'm talking about a supernatural cause." What a joke. Special pleading is funny stuff.

Yes. Yes, you have. Big whoop. The God who created all life forms out of nothing by speaking them into existence is not constrained by your puny laws of nature.

But hey, why not actually make an argument as to why God would NOT be able to suspend His own laws if He chose to do so? Why not attempt any argument at all? See, if you're going to assert that the resurrection violates what we know of biology (which NO ONE disputes, btw), then your real mountain is to explain in no uncertain terms why God is somehow bound to obey the laws and priniciples which He himself created. You have not begun such a climb.

Don't shift the burden of proof. Give an argument that there is in fact a god that does " suspend laws." You can't just assume Christianity is true.

See my CONCLUSION above. Feel free to offer your own alternative theory which explains ALL of the five facts.

I did give one people died for a lie. There's an irregularity supported by occam's razor.

[Minimalist]

I'm still waiting for five facts.

I'd settle for one.

[Randy Carson]

You know what the problem with your arguments is, Randy? They didn't convince you. You did not come to believe a purportedly magical Jew came back from the dead by the minimal facts approach. You were taught to believe that, so you do. All this *dramatic hand gesture* is just an excuse you make before rational people for believing what you believe, but it doesn't hold water. To find it valid, you need to already believe it to be true. It's making your way back from the conclusion, a big fat presupposition you can't erase, and without it your argument falls to pieces.

The question is....How do you expect your reasoning to convince us, if it didn't even convince YOU?

It is true that I did not find MY way to God by means of these arguments. My faith journey has been very different.

That does not mean, however, that no one comes to God by them.

I could give examples that I have seen in real life, or you could read the stories of Jews, agnostics and atheists who came to believe that Jesus is God by means of considering presentations like the one I have made in this thread.

Not everyone will. Maybe no one here will.

But apologetics - the why of our faith - is just as important as evangelism - the what of our faith, and I am confident that if you decide to objectively examine the evidence, you can come to a faith position.

Alternatively, you can continue as you are. Inertia is a powerful force.

[Randy Carson]

Even if it can be proven that jesus lived and was crucified, it cannot be proven that he rose from the dead.  It cannot be proven that he was dead.  And it damn sure cannot be proven that he was the son of some invisible deity.  So unless you are willing to accept Zeus as a real god, quoting religious mythology is useless for anything other than entertainment, poorly written at that. Your bible speaks of Zeus and 33 other gods at last count.

Was Jesus a real person?

Did he die by crucifixion?

What are the facts?

[Randy Carson]

That's all you got? REALLY? 'You can't make up a story I would accept, therefore I'm right'?

Nope, sorry. Doesn't work that way.

I lost my keys, then found them in the basement which was locked and nobody could've gained access to it, and my cat was restless. My theory is that it was a magical sentient cauliflower on a pogo stick. Do you need to have a better theory to dismiss mine as improbable?

Let's go slower.

Was Jesus a real person?