Do you have the right to be an atheist?

[c172]

No, and maybe a little? Sorry, dude. Gotta give me some less condescending choices.

First post. Just plain wow.

[Cato]

I know i'm probably not even as half as smart as you guys here...

Finishing your argument with "believe me because I'm an idiot" isn't very convincing.

[Esquilax]

Edit: @ Esquilax , i'm not expecting you to believe my beliefs and its not my intention,my intention is to seek help from this community members in helping me solve this argument i have against the non-existence of a god.I want people to tell me if i'm right or wrong and provide me with sufficient data to prove their point.That's all i want,i don't want anything more.

There's your problem right there: your entire argument is a double dose of shifting the burden of proof, if you're going to phrase it as an argument against the non-existence of god. In the first case, "we don't know everything, and we have no evidence against the existence of god," is shifting the burden of proof, which all positive arguments have, by expecting that we provide proof of a negative. In the second, you're asking us to disprove an argument that hasn't met it's initial burden of proof, which we don't really need to do.

You said that i must establish possibility before i talk about the probability of a "God".What about the probability of the possibility?

I'd say you're making a distinction without a difference, there.

According to me the possibility is existent.Why?I would agree that it is impossible if:

*Every life form in earth(an eg being humans)had a "standard".
As in,every humans would have a fixed amount of IQ and other human qualities.Which is not the case a person can be retarded and another person can be a genius.A person can be short and another person can be tall.We see such diversity even in humans(we are more different than same?).Furthermore we see animals that have eyes in their mouth??A human with extraordinary memory but average in other aspects,a person that can calculate faster than a calculator??I think that this diversity is proof enough that further diversities are possible.And considering the fact that there are countless other planets and countless possibilities of life across the universe these diversities can be further "diverse".And if a being can have atleast 1 diversity which is atleast 1 of the characteristics of "God" then another being can have atleast 2 diversities which are the same diversities a supernatural power such as "God" may exibit.Doesn't that make it possible for the existence of a god?

Well, if you're going to argue based on the observations of diverse characteristics you see in reality, then by the same token you need to remember that, thus far, such observations do not contain any supernatural elements, and in fact directly contradict them, as every time we've ever encountered a supernatural claim, it later turned out to be entirely mundane.

And if your argument ultimately boils down to "we see a lot of stuff, therefore anything is possible," then I'd have to say no, that's not true. You won't, for example, find a square circle anywhere in the universe, simply by definition, and that alone is sufficient to split reality into two sets: the possible and the impossible. We have no way of determining that god is in the "possible" set.

All that having been said, this is still kinda irrelevant to atheism, given that, as others have said, our position generally isn't that there is no god, merely that it's irrational to believe in something without sufficient evidence. "It's possible," is not sufficient evidence to incite belief, and hence the god claim gets none, making me an atheist. It's also possible that Bigfoot exists: why would I believe in Bigfoot on that alone?

[Whateverist]

I'll have to ask my doctor if I'm healthy enough for atheism. Oh screw it, I've been one for almost five decades. Obviously one has the right to reject all unsupported claims if one wants to do that. No one requires a right to do that.

[Salacious B. Crumb]

Do you have the right to be an atheist?

Yes, I have the right to be an atheist. No one can dictate the use my reasoning faculties, except for moi.

I have to concur with most of the observations made here, that you are arguing from ignorance. Us, claiming that you are arguing from ignorance isn’t an insult, it means, just have an open mind, don’t assume things, and use rational thought. It seems that you are being sincere, so I’ll try to shed some light on my opinions on what’s going through your head. You seem to be thinking of yourself as a quark in a solar system. The sheer immenseness seems to overwhelm you of what you know to exist, compared to how tiny of a cockroach you and I really are. Thinking in those terms gets you into a complex state of awe, which can be a powerful. Powerful, in an imaginative, persuasive kind of way. You start thinking, how could this all exist? This is so amazing, it would have to have a creator, instead of using our best source of knowing things…science. Science is the best thing we have to figure out answers to questions. And, just because it doesn’t have an answer to the specific question of, “How did it all begin?” doesn’t mean you should jump to the conclusion that a god probably exists. God is man-made construct to try to answer a question, because humans have such a hard time with not knowing information, so we go as far as to make up stories to satisfy ourselves. You have been predisposed to the idea of god, because of primitive minds passing on what they think is the best possible explanation to the grand question. I think you need to get that out of your head, and research as much as you can about other explanations and look at the evidence for quite some time, listen to the arguments from people that know what they’re talking about, then make a rational decision. Just because something is amazing, doesn’t mean that a god exists. Have you ever seen any evidence personally? Has god ever appeared to you, done anything that couldn’t have possibly happened without some sort of divine intervention? I’m guessing no, if you have answered rationally. Give it some thought…don’t stop looking up at the stars and daydreaming, but don’t start being gullible because of your ignorance.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

@Esquilax, Read carefully,

*X is saying to Y that god exists.
*Y is saying to X that god doesn't exist.
*X asks Y if Y can prove that god doesn't exists.

That is shifting the burden of proof right?
What happened here,

*X is saying to Y that god exists.
*Y is saying to X that god doesn't exit.
*X supply logical arguments to support X's theory.
*Y should believe X if Y cannot disapprove X's argument

See,i'm not shifting the burden of proof.

Circle,Square etc are concepts that we've developed over time and these are concepts we have very keen knowledge of.Therefore we can be sure of their existence or non-existence(because we are entirely familiar with their idea).Moreover Circle,Square etc are not living things,they are ideas,ideas do not evolve by themselves.Living things can evolve to adjust with their surroundings.I don't know why you mixed these :/
I think that if it is logical to assume the existence of aliens then it is logical to assume that they may characteristics that are the same as the characteristics that are consistent with the definition of a "God".

As of many years back it was supernatural for a person in one end of the world to communicate with another person in the other end of the world.That is not the case as of now.
At present it is supernatural to be in many places at once,to talk with mind etc.
Teleportation is theoritically possible,human beings have just not developed any way to do this in practice.
Suppose a species in some distant planet solved the problem and many other problems which we believe are "Supernatural" then by definition they are god(with respect to our knowledge)but they are completely natural(with respect to their knowledge).They are gods to us.Therefore gods exist with respect to us.
Right?

Now,the way this argument should go is that you tell me aliens do not exist in the universe to prove that i'm wrong.Am i right?

Edit: But you cant actually prove whether aliens exist or not you can only be slightly agreeing with the probability of one of the ideas.Many smart people i know agree that about the existence of aliens and there are organisations dedicated to finding this foreign life.So according to me aliens do exist.

In general if you believe in aliens and support the theory of evolution you believe in god,you just don't know it yet.
This is what i think.

[robvalue]

Hello, welcome to the forum

Belief, or lack of belief, is a state of mind not a choice. So I cannot be anything other than an atheist until such time that something convinces me otherwise.

The problem with "God" is not just the lack of evidence, but the lack of coherence. What is it, exactly? How would we know it if we experienced it? Any definition I've ever heard is just a vague appeal to something really powerful, often with attributes that don't even make sense. If it's just "the creator" then really, that's all the definition you need. People generally just can't stop there though

I have no problem admitting there may well be plenty of stuff going on in the universe that I have no idea about, or am even aware of. This doesn't trouble me. Was there some intelligent being behind all this? I don't know, but I don't yet see any evidence to suggest that there was. And if there is, I see no need to call it "God". In whatever reality it is in, I see no reason to think it's anything other than a regular member. And the idea that we can learn anything about it is absurd at the moment. You seem to agree religions are fairy stories for adults.

To me, I don't care either. It makes no difference to me whether there was a creator, or if it's still paying any attention / still exists. Until any information about it becomes apparent, I'll carry on living my life as best I can. It's an interesting concept, but it makes no practical difference. If any evidence does come to light, I'll be all over it with great curiosity. But there is none; just people with silly books and anecdotes. I have no desire to "worship" it, I find the concept obscene.

So there you go! Enjoy the forums

[Whateverist]

Now,the way this argument should go is that you tell me aliens do not exist in the universe to prove that i'm wrong.Am i right?

What Rob wrote.  Quite easy to imagine aliens existing, the idea is comprehensible.  But 'supernatural' stuff?  No clue how to imagine that.

[ignoramus]

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Now,the way this argument should go is that you tell me aliens do not exist in the universe to prove that i'm wrong.Am i right?

What Rob wrote.  Quite easy to imagine aliens existing, the idea is comprehensible.  But 'supernatural' stuff?  No clue how to imagine that.

Well then its easy if you believe in aliens.
You just need to find a clean and consistent definition of supernatural.
For me supernatural is an occurrence that the present society cannot explain or is generally incomprehensible.Notice i said "present society" because what's supernatural 1000 years ago may not be supernatural at the present and what's supernatural at the present may not be supernatural 1000 years after.(I don't mean ghosts,werewolves,vampires and those kind of things,generally any natural occurrence that we are unable to explain.)

So now you have a clear definition of supernatural,keep that in your head. 

You said that its "Quite easy to imagine aliens existing".Good.
And i assume that its quite easy to imagine alien life that are of a superior intellect than that of human being too,yes? I mean like no human should think that their species are the smartest most modernized species in the entire of the universe.

So now,you have a clear definition of Supernatural and we are able to accept the high probability of the existence of intellectually superior beings in the universe.

Now lets look at some of the ideas that classify as being supernatural in our present society.

*Regenerative healing factors
*Invisibility 
*Teleportation (the list goes on)

Did you know that teleportation,invisibility and regenerative healing factors are real things?
Yes,actual real things that may or may not be happening right around us.If you don't believe me look it up on google.
There are numerous articles,proofs even i believe,to support that the theoretical possibility of teleportation,invisibility etc are indeed possible.
Regenerative healing factors are present in creatures that are present in earth that are around us.

So we've come to the conclusion that the theoretical aspect of invisibility,teleportation is possible and that regenerative healing factors are not non-existent.
Do you recall saying that its "Quite easy to imagine aliens existing"?Well do you remember agreeing to the fact that there is a high probability of superior intellectual beings in the universe? Good.

Suppose these "Intellectually superior beings" tackled these problems that we face,problems such as Invisibility,Teleportation and they can infact perform these "miracles".Suppose they tackled these theoretical problems and made them into practical realities just as we made computers,discovered/Invented AC etc.

So that gives these beings what?Some of the supernatural "powers" as i've explained above.Since they have some of the supernatural characteristics don't they have some of the attributes of "God"(with respect to us,our knowledge,our science,our comprehension because these beings do not have any supernatural characteristics or god like attributes with respect to them itself,its how they they've been and they think its normal).

So if a Alien species with superior intellect exist and they have tackled some of the many theoretical possibilities yet practical impossibilities of our current society(notice i said current society)doesn't that make them gods?
I think it does.(After all if you have the characteristics of a god or a superior being or posses supernatural qualities then you ARE god,correct?)

If its quite easy to imagine aliens existing and if its clear that evolution is in fact an actual phenomenon then we automatically believe in god.Most of us just don't know it.
I believe in god(so should you its the most logical conclusion)but i do not believe in religion.
I welcome any arguments that can contradict my argument.

This is what i think.

Edit: I think most of you guys over-think about the concept of a God(so did i some years back)and form a complex or incomprehensible idea of a God in your mind.If you think in simple terms it becomes apparent.