Calling it into question...

[Drich]

Right... and to be considered "his people" one has to fear him and obey him and just "believe" that he's around, somewhere, making promises that if you fear and obey him, he won't send you to hell. 

Are you talking about Christianity? If so Christ died so we don't have to live a life 'by the rules.' all He asks in return is that you acknowledge His sacrifice, Forgive as you have been forgiven, and don't lust after/want to do the sinful things He died to forgive you of. Plus God offers Proof in the Way of the Holy Spirit. What better proof of God is there than God directly working in your life?!?!

I'm sorry Drich, but it's not a basic life comprehension/philosophy problem that I have. It is not even a problem. It's the basic, undeniable fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that this "god" individual exists.

That's not true at all Evidence abounds. What 'science' wants is an experiment/way to manipulate God. If God could be tapped into or manipulated by us He would cease to be God.
The bible is a set of instructions/way to find God. If you want proof all anyone need do is follow the instructions.

So what happens, if say, someone like yourself, lives out their whole life believing in the promises of this "god", only to find out upon your death that that's it.There is no heaven. There is no hell. There is simply nothing after you die. You would have spent your whole life believing in something that turned out to be nothing.

You must be really new... My whole Life as been me collecting on the promises God has offered all of us, by me just being faithful to what I have been given. I have been given much, and inturn I give back all that I can. If however it is like you say and there is nothing after death, and I just happen to live a life of unbelieveable consenquences then I will be good with the nothingness that follows.

Now quid pro quoe Clarisse Quid Pro Quoe.. What if you die and find out everything the bible says was true? will you try and debate God with the list found in the OP?

what if He then inturns says you had a perception/life philosophy problem? Then point to this exchange and says look, I even sent someone to try and warn you...
 

I don't necessarily "fear" death in the way that the Abrahamic god would want his people to fear it. I don't necessarily look forward to it - I'm only 44. Still young by my standards. I'm just not ready to face it head on. I still have many years left to live, to screw up, to make mistakes and to grow.

lol. tomato To-Matoe. You don't fear death but you can not embrace/not willing to accept it. To the degree that you view death as a negative or a 'bad thing.'

You are also right in the fact that I don't have a "god" problem. I can't have a problem with a non-existent entity, who refuses to show himself to his people - even after 2000 years.

What are you talking about God lives in the presents of His people for the last 2000 years? God is here now with those who belong to Him. Maybe you assume that because God could not be summoned by you in what ever failed effort you threw his way, but you need to know that you and those like you are not the standard in which the world turns. God can not be 'summoned' by man. He is not some genie in a bottle that we exchange good deeds for with granted wishes.

Again God can be found, but only on His terms.

Yes, indeed, the times have changed and words from the time the book was supposedly written about, for the most part, don't really have the exact same meanings. That said, there are still many people out there who literally live by the word of god. And sadly, those are the same people who make excuses for all the parts of the bible they don't want to live by. Seventh Day Adventists are known for this. My ex - his family are Seventh Day Adventists.

Sorry to hear that. Legalism is the death of the relationship Christ died to provide.

They follow "some" of the rules of the OT, but only the ones they feel they want to. For instance, they won't eat "unclean" meat, even though in the NT, it says all meat is clean,

indeed, unless you think it unclean. fore it is not the meat that is clean or unclean but what you think of it. If it is a sin for a weaker brother to eat certain foods, then for him it is. therefore one should not tempt the weaker brother if he does not understand fully eating meat is not a sin.

but they will wear mixed fabrics and some women do keep their hair short. It's a mixed bag of confusion and other than lack of proof of existence, just one of the things that is a turn off.

That was the same problem Christ found in the legalism of the Pharisees. Legalism is the idea that adhearing to the law is how God finds one righteous. When infact one can only befound righteous through Christ.

Additionally, one would think, that after all this time has passed, surely god would appear to his people - you know - give them something to see, because after 2000 years or 6000 years (depending on how one looks at it) of being absent from view, he should show up and say... Hey, I'm still here and I love you. If he is real, I want to hear HIM tell ME he loves ME. I don't want to hear it from some 100th generation person who's never met him either.  

Again, who says He hasn't? The 7 day Adventist? What if that faith was so far off center that God abandoned it? Not completely as one could potentially found salvation, at the final judgement, but abandoned it in such a way as to not bless that religion or it's followers with His presence? After all why would God 'support/bless' a religion who is teaching doctrine oppsite of what He wants for us?
(This principle is explain better in Jesus' parable of the wise and foolish builders if you want to hear it)

But there is nothing. And after thousands of years, the expectation is still that one has to have "blind faith".

Again, not true. I can promise you God is with those who actively Ask Seek and Knock for Him as outlined by luke 11.

I would think there would be so many more disappointed people roaming the earth by now.

That is an awesome point!
So now ask yourself why isn't their a bunch more disappointed people roaming the earth... Maybe the reason is they have indeed found what God has promised.

I compare the "father" to a deadbeat parent. You know.. the one that makes promises to see their child, and after the child eagerly waits on the steps of their house, waiting for their mom or dad to come and visit or or pick them up, the parent never shows.

Maybe that's the thing.. Maybe you were not promised anything more than you got, because you never sought God outside of what you have personally identified as a dead cult/religion. Maybe God was never your Father to begin with. Maybe your 'Mother'/Church simply told you, you have a father that never visited, but infact it is the actions of the 'mother' keeping the Father away.

Do that to a kid several times and the kid starts to feel like they aren't important enough, so they start thinking that their missing parent isn't important because of so many broken promises. Honestly, the let down is real. The entity who is responsible for the cause of that, isn't. And if anyone wants to make the point of the let down being the fault of man, then that is an admittance that religion is a man made idea.

Obviously I'm not alone in this line of thinking. Ya know?

Have you not read the parable of the wise and foolish builders? do you not understand it?

Two men build an identical home, however one man build on a large stable rock as the home's foundation, and the other builds on the sand.

Now the homes they built are equal to our religions/religious efforts. in this case Jesus is saying two different men can do the exact same thing as far as religious worship is concerned, and will see two completely different results. Primarly because one man built on a solid foundation (the truth of Jesus Christ) and the other did not.

Then God sends the rains and wind to test what the men built.

What was built on the truth of Christ survived the storm meaning when you build your religious efforts on the truth of Christ/What God wants you to build on your efforts stand! What was built on the sand or man's thoughts and philosophies like legalism collapses when the winds and rains come to test your faith/religion.

Given what you currently believe about God and what you did, which of the two builders do you think you were?

Now ask yourself why do you think God took away your 'house?'

Did you pray a prayer for a closer relationship, better understanding, or proof of God? What if your legalistic religion was what was keeping you from that 'proof'? Having the winds and rain take your old house from you would be the first step in the right direction IF you would simply Ask Seek and Knock for the Holy Spirit as He has instructed.

[popsthebuilder]

No. The only thing I have made clear is that there is but one God. That's what some don't seem to understand. All religions have the capacity to be the same based on their ancient writings. I don't know that Jesus was resurrected in a meaterial sense, but I do know that he returned to the Lord from which he came, and in that same sense can be considered God. He was a perfect example of what we could be as humans.

[Drich]

So.. Let's say a Member of ISIS who hates all Westerners and anything not ISIS Muslim would die a terrible death IF you did not take Him/Them into your house. Now keep in mind once in your house they have full intention of killing you and your family, taking your house and possessions and turning them over to their want, will and cause. Now the question is, do you invite them in to your home?

Obviously, all of us would answer 'No'. You however, wouldn't just not invite them into your house, you would put them in another house where someone was assigned to torture them for the rest of their natural lives.
When you don't invite someone into your house it doesn't mean they are automatically sent somewhere else. They are free to go anywhere they want except for the 'my house' contingent. God however intentionally set it up as an either/or proposition.

now keep reading... did you see it? "ALL OF CREATION IS GOD'S HOUSE!!!" The absence of creation is what Hell is smoothie. So either one is apart of God's creation/house or one is not=Hell.

Also where does the bible say we will be tortured forever? It says the fires of Hell are forever, and have been stoked for satan, but where does it say a human soul will burn forever.. Christ tells us many times that we will be thrown into the fire and consumed by it. (Granted it may take some longer to be consumed than others, but eventually all will be consumed.) Also you are aware that Hell is not a satan run realm (you are mixing mythology in to Christianity if you believe this) Hell is where Lucifer and his followers are imprisioned/lock out of God's house.

[pocaracas]

---

The lack of proper backstory and emotion will no doubt be cause for a lacking explanation, but I will try to give the quick versions. I will attempt to describe my two most influential accounts.

1) I was lost and in extreme despair. I was fighting on many fronts both internally and with outer things. I was literally full to the top with rage and hatred toward myself and others. I was about to go to prison for a long time because I was physically and mentally very close to ending another human life. Anyway, so right to it.

I was driving home after work one day, enraged and at the breaking point and really quite comfortable, all things considered. I had gotten very used to my way of being and even used it as motivation. I remember the radio on my truck faded out to near silence. I changed the channel to more silence. I adjusted the volume, still silence. At this moment a great relief washed over me. All the weight and burden and anger that I had hoisted onto my shoulders was instantly and miraculously lifted from me. I was filled with a joy I had never witnessed and tears of joy flowed freely down my face. This instant undeniable truth hit me with such force that I was literally laughing out loud and crying my eyes out at The same time while driving down the road. I thought roughly about all my pain and all my times that I knew there was no God. Before being able to complete this thought the Lord broke down all parts of my life. Things I didn't even remember until that time. He showed me that he was there beside me through all my hardship and doubt. He showed me that he indeed knew me and the path he intended for me before I was even conceived. He showed that I was not only wrong in my disbelief but that he indeed had a purpose for me.  my radio came back on. When I got home I attempted to write down the already fading events that took place. All I managed was some ideas related to what the Lord showed me. Ever since I have been much more at peace, have direction, am decisive, free of worldly burdens in the form of stress, am patient, and exhibit a completely different view from the one I knew through my turmoil. That was about 4-5 years ago.

About a month ago I told myself I was no longer going to partake in something. Well I did it anyway and instantly got violently nauseous. Went outside began violently vomiting at which time I could think of nothing more than how I had lied to myself and the Lord. I thought to ask for whole hearted forgiveness. Before I completed the thought I was completely forgiven. I was instantly 100% no longer sick. His presents was so overwhelming that again tears of joy rolled down. All I could do was look to the sky and thank and praise the Lord for his mercy and guidance. It was so enlivening that I began to spout praise aloud and at one point at the top of my lungs. This was in the early morning. A man was there and witnessed all of it. He was scared and didn't understand. He asked what was happening and I told him. He believed and confessed that he felt our very meeting was preordained and beneficial for us both. He asked questions of the Lord and the Lord answered him through me. Eventually he asked of evil. At this time I was taken by the unspeakable and answered his questions quite disturbingly. It was very difficult to get back to the right state of mind once evil had snuck in. There was great internal and physical turmoil and great effort on my part to subdue and restrain the very real evil that attempted to stay at the front. Thought the Lord and his loaned strength I was able to push the evil down and lock it away. Upon doing so I stood straight and was once again joyous. The witness slowly became unafraid. We both agreed that we were supposed to meet and it was my responsibility to help him anyway I could for he was lost and knew from the first time he met me that I was good and could afford him the change he so desperately needed. Today I try to set things on my side in order to assist this individual for I believe it is my duty shown to me by the Lord. I praise the Lord and tell him that I will never forget how he came to my aid in my time of desperate need. I have told him for years that I was indeed a true believer and would pass the word. I ask only of him to guide me down the path he has chosen and to walk along side me down that path. It isn't all peaches and cream. But if I look, the Lord never leads astray. For that I praise him.

---

Thank you for sharing your story.

It reminds me a bit of Drich's story in that he, too, was in a sad state and then had some sort of revelation or epiphany.
It is also reminiscent of the story claimed by the Paul character in the NT.
So, there's a pattern.

I wouldn't interpret what happened to you quite as a divine intervention within you, but... you know?... good for you that it happened and that you are a better person for hanging on to your version of the event.

Now, please be aware that others don't share your interpretation and, as such, they will not be receptive to you pushing your view onto them... which is kind of what you've been doing in this forum. You've been presenting something under a particular light, when it may not be necessarily so...

Keep cool and don't murder anyone.

[popsthebuilder]

No problem. Why do you reject a view so quickly? I could understand if it didn't solve every problem on earth. Just curious.

[LostLocke]

Oh, so then you're on the same page I was when I was a JW. We aren't tortured forever, we (our soul) simply ceases to exist.... IE, we're just "dead", non-existent?

[cercatorius]

Obviously, all of us would answer 'No'. You however, wouldn't just not invite them into your house, you would put them in another house where someone was assigned to torture them for the rest of their natural lives.
When you don't invite someone into your house it doesn't mean they are automatically sent somewhere else. They are free to go anywhere they want except for the 'my house' contingent. God however intentionally set it up as an either/or proposition.

now keep reading... did you see it? "ALL OF CREATION IS GOD'S HOUSE!!!" The absence of creation is what Hell is smoothie. So either one is apart of God's creation/house or one is not=Hell.

Also where does the bible say we will be tortured forever? It says the fires of Hell are forever, and have been stoked for satan, but where does it say a human soul will burn forever.. Christ tells us many times that we will be thrown into the fire and consumed by it. (Granted it may take some longer to be consumed than others, but eventually all will be consumed.) Also you are aware that Hell is not a satan run realm (you are mixing mythology in to Christianity if you believe this) Hell is where Lucifer and his followers are imprisioned/lock out of God's house.

Hell is a product of Dante, not Jesus.

---

No problem. Why do you reject a view so quickly? I could understand if it didn't solve every problem on earth. Just curious.

I'm not sure we can claim that Christianity solves every problem on earth. It seems it has actually caused a great many problems, and I think Jesus expected it to. He was pretty clear that his message would bring unrest and discord.

[Minimalist]

Even other intelegent creatures that surely make there own decisions choose to take there preordained path.

Here's a little hint for you pops.... when trying to speak of other intelligent creatures don't misspell "intelligent."  It makes you look stupid.

I see all the theists are checking in trying to pump life back into their fairy tales against the Apostate.  Keep up the good work, Cerc.  We love it when theists fight among themselves!

[cercatorius]

Here's a goodie:

[img][/img]

teehee! that's one of my favorites!

[pocaracas]

No problem. Why do you reject a view so quickly?

Occam's razor is a typically, a good guideline...
Why should I attribute something to the creator and ultimate controller of the cosmos when it can be a simple chemical gradient problem within the brain of an individual?... and such gradients can occur on multiple individuals, as we sort of share a lot of our genetic makeup.

I could understand if it didn't solve every problem on earth. Just curious.

The genie in the lamp could solve every problem on Earth, too... doesn't make him a real entity, does it?
And yet, many people rub every lamp they come across... not that oil lamps are that common anymore... should we all do as they do, perhaps?

On the other hand, I see a lot of problems on Earth and, even those that are not caused by humans, must be solved by humans, or just left alone.... I see no ultimate power intervening anywhere... except, according to their own testimonies, on a few individual heads.... I hope you can understand how I find it far more likely that a few individuals have mental problems than that there exists such an ultimate being tweaking those individuals' minds so they feel better.

I mean, I would very much like for such a problem solver to exist and do its thing... but... sadly... that's not what I see... that's not what lots of people see. I see people. People doing good things, people doing bad things, people helping other people, people claiming things, people believing in such claims, people believing in other similar but non-compatible claims, people with mental problems, people treating some of those problems, people building structures where claims made by other people can be further enhanced and explored and spread to even more people, people feeling good by accepting those claims, people... I see people.
I keep telling this to every theist around here... Drich, remember when it was your turn?