If God changed his mind

[Kingpin]

Does that make the Third Reich an atheistic state, or rather the opposite?

No it does not make it an atheistic state.  Atheism is not a movement but a personal declaration of a lack of belief in God.  

However, it was certainly not Christian.  If you replace the word Christianity with the word Atheism in hitler's speeches, would you say it was an atheist state or movement?

Hitler was enthralled with creating the "superman" or "ubermensch".  There are some that argue that Nietzsche's philosophy spear-headed the Third Reich and other Fascist states as under Stalin and Mussolini and there is certainly reasonably evidence to assume such as there are direct reflections back to the writings and idea of Nietzsche from each regime.  Nietzsche popularized the term, "God is dead, we have killed him".  Read his parable called "The Mad Man".  Where men kill the idea of God and then assume the role of God themselves.

[Longhorn]

I think you misunderstand.

If he had to convince his followers with christianity, what does that say about his followers?

[Kingpin]

I think you misunderstand.

If he had to convince his followers with christianity, what does that say about his followers?

He did not have to convince his followers with Christianity.  He created a propaganda machine and lead with an iron fist.  His first moves as chancellor were abolishing the Reich Presidency and having the army swear a personal oath of unconditional obedience to him as "the Fuhrer of the German Reich and People."  Restoration of order, rebuilding the economy, removal of the scourge of unemployment, demolition of the restrictions of the hated Versailles Treaty, and the establishment of national unity all had wide popular resonance, ranging far beyond die-hard Nazis, appealing in fact in different ways to practically every sector of society. Opinion surveys long after the end of the Second World War show that many people, even then, continued to associate these "achievements" positively with Hitler.

[Lemonvariable72]

Does that make the Third Reich an atheistic state, or rather the opposite?

No it does not make it an atheistic state.  Atheism is not a movement but a personal declaration of a lack of belief in God.  

However, it was certainly not Christian.  If you replace the word Christianity with the word Atheism in hitler's speeches, would you say it was an atheist state or movement?

Hitler was enthralled with creating the "superman" or "ubermensch".  There are some that argue that Nietzsche's philosophy spear-headed the Third Reich and other Fascist states as under Stalin and Mussolini and there is certainly reasonably evidence to assume such as there are direct reflections back to the writings and idea of Nietzsche from each regime.  Nietzsche popularized the term, "God is dead, we have killed him".  Read his parable called "The Mad Man".  Where men kill the idea of God and then assume the role of God themselves.

You can't just replace terms in the speech as hitler often talked about his personal faith in detail quite similarly to how some Republican Presidents have done. The Catholic church also openly supported Mussolini and the fascist movements as a whole. They also maintained an official doctrine of anti semtiism till 64.

[Longhorn]

I think you misunderstand.

If he had to convince his followers with christianity, what does that say about his followers?

He did not have to convince his followers with Christianity.  He created a propaganda machine and lead with an iron fist.  His first moves as chancellor were abolishing the Reich Presidency and having the army swear a personal oath of unconditional obedience to him as "the Fuhrer of the German Reich and People."  Restoration of order, rebuilding the economy, removal of the scourge of unemployment, demolition of the restrictions of the hated Versailles Treaty, and the establishment of national unity all had wide popular resonance, ranging far beyond die-hard Nazis, appealing in fact in different ways to practically every sector of society. Opinion surveys long after the end of the Second World War show that many people, even then, continued to associate these "achievements" positively with Hitler.

Um. You just said he used christianity to get what he wanted. Which is it?

[Kingpin]

No it does not make it an atheistic state.  Atheism is not a movement but a personal declaration of a lack of belief in God.  

However, it was certainly not Christian.  If you replace the word Christianity with the word Atheism in hitler's speeches, would you say it was an atheist state or movement?

Hitler was enthralled with creating the "superman" or "ubermensch".  There are some that argue that Nietzsche's philosophy spear-headed the Third Reich and other Fascist states as under Stalin and Mussolini and there is certainly reasonably evidence to assume such as there are direct reflections back to the writings and idea of Nietzsche from each regime.  Nietzsche popularized the term, "God is dead, we have killed him".  Read his parable called "The Mad Man".  Where men kill the idea of God and then assume the role of God themselves.

You can't just replace terms in the speech as hitler often talked about his personal faith in detail quite similarly to how some Republican Presidents have done. The Catholic church also openly supported Mussolini and the fascist movements as a whole. They also maintained an official doctrine of anti semtiism till 64.

Was Hitler a Christian? Emphatically not, if we consider Christianity in its traditional or orthodox form: Jesus as the son of God, dying for the redemption of the sins of all humankind. It is a nonsense to state that Hitler (or any of the Nazis) adhered to Christianity of this form.

The idea of universal salvation through Christ dying on the cross - the core concern of the recent celebration of Easter - was complete anathema to the Nazis, who adhered to salvation by race rather than grace. However, it is equally true that there were leading Nazis who adhered to a form of Christianity that had been "aryanised."

Overall, one could argue that all the leading Nazis measured religion by a series of racial hurdles, meaning that: Jesus could not be Jewish, he had to be Aryan; a heroic fighter, not a passive sacrifice; the Old Testament had to be rejected, and the New Testament purged.

Yes the Church "supported" the fascist movements as they were promised autonomy if they stayed away from political agendas (the Concordat between Hitler and the RCC), hardly "support", it was purely political and in now way an endorsement of the ideas proposed by either church or state.

---

He did not have to convince his followers with Christianity.  He created a propaganda machine and lead with an iron fist.  His first moves as chancellor were abolishing the Reich Presidency and having the army swear a personal oath of unconditional obedience to him as "the Fuhrer of the German Reich and People."  Restoration of order, rebuilding the economy, removal of the scourge of unemployment, demolition of the restrictions of the hated Versailles Treaty, and the establishment of national unity all had wide popular resonance, ranging far beyond die-hard Nazis, appealing in fact in different ways to practically every sector of society. Opinion surveys long after the end of the Second World War show that many people, even then, continued to associate these "achievements" positively with Hitler.

Um. You just said he used christianity to get what he wanted. Which is it?

Vic, what I mean is he did not use Christianity to convince people to follow him.  He used social agendas, abolishing the establishment to gain favor and then used the Church and pleading to the Christian nation (Germany was 95% Christian) as a political tactic to further his goals of creating the superior race.

[Longhorn]

Those two statements are contradictory. And you said yourself Germany was predominantly christian. My issue is with the misconception of the Third Reich being an atheistic state.

[Drich]

Hitler was a christian and the RCC fully supported him. This counters your assertion that the third Reich was set on atheism. Who you believe to be a real christian ™ is irrelevant.

I love it when you people want to play history professor on this matter with me. Even Minie got himself stung doing so.. So before you respond make sure you want to do this. This is one of my fav non christian subjects and I can really provide you with alot of reading to do. You better warm up your search engine!

A quote from one of Hitler's speeches in 1922:

So hitler didn't get pronounced chanclor till 1933. In 1919 he was just getting started in the DAP (which is pre Nazism) in 1923 he was still rifling for position in the National socialist party. He was a brawler who was campaigning for support in beer halls. Remember the Nazi's at that time were just one of several political parties struggling to unite Germany. Your speech is from that era. It had absolutely nothing to do with who or what the Nazi party was or was to become. Nothing the Nazi's promised at that time came about. They promised a great number of things Including to give everyone a clean and respectable state sponcered/approved home, put a car (what is later known as the VW BEETLE) in every drive way, and a fair wage in every hand. along with that also came a whole host of other promises in a era of super great depression. Germany was being made to pay for all the damage they caused in WWI and it was breaking the back and the will of the members of that nation. This is why when Hitler and his buddies started to promise wealth and prosperity, people sold their souls to the devil by the millions to get a piece of the 'german dream.'

Once Germany united under hitler He very quickly broke ties with the Roman Catholic Church because the pope condemned His actions,(Hitler claim the pope was tring to dictate policies that would hurt the german people) and he established a german state ran church in an effort to control the church and its message. This was known as 'positive Christianity.' (It was a church that supported everything hitler decreed. Hitler was the defacto god) As the war progressed he moved to eliminate All remanents of the catholic church as well as an other non 'positive christianity churches) below are links to support everything I said here.

Now, If the quote you posted was indeed what Hitler wanted for the Nazi party why did He go off in this direction? I mean if the pope supported him as you claimed then why not just stay in league with the R/C Church? After Italy and Germany were alies.

Positive Christianity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

The 'people's car':
http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/vw.htm

The house:
http://research.calvin.edu/german-propag...nhouse.htm

The persecution of Catholics in Nazi Germany:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_perse...in_Germany

Citation, please.

soit-ten-ly

here is a list of all the different symbols:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_symbolism

Look at each one carfully. None of them can be identified with Christianity. ALL of them however represent another culture's another faith, good luck, power, protection etc, charm enchantment or spell.

With the above link simply type in the german name and the type in 'orgins' into your search engine.

All of this aside. America after Obama/The west in general looks more and more like pre Nazi Germany all the time. It is absolutely frightening to see how we have forgotten the past and are already repeating it.

[Lemonvariable72]

Kingpin, that's utter bullshit they fed you. http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlern...rJesus.htm
This second link provides many quotes from mein kempf showing that he was a ardent follower of Jesus through a protestant denomination and often was involved social activity with Christian groups.

[Kingpin]

Those two statements are contradictory. And you said yourself Germany was predominantly christian. My issue is with the misconception of the Third Reich being an atheistic state.

I understand your issue with that Vic, but as I stated I do not identify the Third Reich as an atheistic state, but neither do I think it appropriate to label it a Christian movement.  If anything it would be a cult or amalgamation of multiple religions/worldviews.  I've seen some label him a social Darwinist, and while that argument could be made, would it be fair to blame evolution or natural selection for the Holocaust?  In the same breath, one should not blame Christianity for the Nazi movement.