Evidence: The Gathering

[Randy Carson]

Can "evidence from prophecy" be on the horizon, I wonder?

Come again. In english.

There were lots of prophecies in the OT that were fulfilled in Jesus.

Arguing from prophecy was not only Jesus' own approach but very popular for the first 1500 years or so of Christianity.

[Randy Carson]

Pick a single "proof" Randy, preferably the best one.

Negative, Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

(I already have a lot on my plate.)

[Longhorn]

Gee, it's almost as if the NT authors had read the OT.......

[Exian]

Yes! Now I know of someone who believes in the incorruptibles; my favorite piece of bullshit!

I thought I read somewhere that the Church doesn't believe that shit anymore, since it requires dipping the body in wax and keeping it in a air tight glass case...

[Kaninchen]

Can "evidence from prophecy" be on the horizon, I wonder?

Come again. In english.

Sorry, 'evidence from prophecy' is one of Randy's sales scripts.

[Athene]

So, for the past couple of months, I've been listening to skeptics saying, "Show me the evidence, show me the evidence" again and again as if by repetition, they can somehow ward off seeing the existence of God, the existence of Jesus and the resurrection.

Therefore, I'm going to use this thread to gather examples of various types of evidence that I come across. I'll add to or subtract from this document as it seems necessary.  Consider this a work in progress.

Evidence for the Existence of God

Philosophical Arguments
Throughout history, many efforts have been made to prove or disprove the existence of God, and most of these efforts have been discarded. However, there are number of philosophical arguments which have withstood the tests of time and of criticism. The believer only needs one of these arguments to be true while the skeptic must refute all of them thoroughly; if any one of them remains intact after scrutiny, then the existence of God has been proven.

1. The Argument from Change
   
2. The Argument from Efficient Causality
   
3. The Argument from Time and Contingency
   
4. The Argument from Degrees of Perfection
   
5. The Design Argument
   
6. The Kalam Argument
   
7. The Argument from Contingency
   
8. The Argument from the World as an Interacting Whole
   
9. The Argument from Miracles
   
10. The Argument from Consciousness
    
11. The Argument from Truth
    
12. The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God
    
13. The Ontological Argument
    
14. The Moral Argument
    
15. The Argument from Conscience
    
16. The Argument from Desire
    
17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience
    
18. The Argument from Religious Experience
    
19. The Common Consent Argument
    
20. Pascal's Wager (not technically an argument for God existence)
    

Available here.

“Modern” Miracles
Lourdes, Fatima and other appearances of Mary and Jesus approved by the Catholic Church
The Incorruptibles (saints whose bodies have not experienced corruption.)

Personal Experience
When a person comes to know God personally, this knowledge is evidence of His existence.

Evidence for the Existence of the Historical Jesus (Ehrman’s Criteria)

Physical Evidence (photographs, inscriptions on coins, etc.)
The Shroud of Turin

Writings
Nothing written by Jesus exists.

Writings of Others about Jesus
New Testament Documents
Josephus
Tacitus
Pliny the Younger
Mara bar Serapion
Clement of Rome
Polycarp

Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus

Fact 1
After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in his personal tomb. This is significant because it would have been difficult for the disciples to make up the story of an empty tomb when everyone knew where the tomb was located.
1. Jesus’ burial is attested in the very old tradition quoted by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.
“For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.” (1 Co 15:3-5)
Paul “received” this account from Peter within the first five years of Jesus’ crucifixion making the possibility of legend or myth very unlikely.
2. The account of the burial is part of very old source material used by Mark in writing his gospel. The passion narrative, in particular, is thought to be from an even earlier account that was used by all of the gospel writers.
3. As a member of the Jewish court that condemned Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea is unlikely to be a Christian invention.
4. No competing burial story exists.

Fact 2
On the Sunday following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his female followers.
1. The empty tomb story is part of the very old source material used by Mark.
2. The old tradition cited by Paul in 1 Corinthians implies the fact of the empty tomb.
3. Mark’s story is simple and lacks signs of legendary embellishment.
4. The fact that women’s testimony was worthless in first century Palestine strengthens the case that women were the first to discover the empty tomb. Why would any account use the suspect testimony of women if it were not an accurate recounting of what really happened?
5. The earliest Jewish allegations that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body presupposes that the tomb was empty.

Fact 3
On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups experienced appearances of Jesus alive after his death.
1. The list of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection appearances (which is quoted by Paul and vouchsafed by his personal acquaintance with many of the people involved), guarantees that such appearances occurred. These included appearances to Peter, to the Apostles, to 500 people at one time, and to James.
2. The appearance traditions in the gospels provide multiple, independent attestation to these appearances.
3. Researchers have noticed signs of historical credibility in the specific appearances; for example, the unexpected activity of the disciples’ fishing prior to Jesus’ appearance by the Lake of Tiberius or the otherwise inexplicable conversion of James.

Fact 4
The disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite having every reason not to believe it.
1. Their leader was dead, and Jews had no belief in a dying (and rising) Messiah.
2. According to Jewish law, Jesus’ execution as a criminal showed him to be a heretic and a man literally under the curse of God.
3. Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded anyone’s rising from the dead before the general resurrection at the end of the world.
4. The disciples were transformed from a dispirited, fearful group into a bold and fearless force willing to take on the world.

Fact 5
The conversion of Paul

Fact 6
The conversion of James

Fact 7
The Jews who followed Jesus abandoned the Sabbath and chose the first day of the week, Sunday, as their holy day.
1. Why would Jews abandon the Sabbath day instituted by God unless something very significant had happened on Sunday?

Fact 8
The Apostles began to preach the resurrection of Jesus in Jerusalem where He had been killed.
1. They did not return to Galilee and begin preaching to people who had no knowledge of the facts concerning Jesus’ crucifixion; they began preaching right under the noses of those who were responsible for His death.
2. Anyone wanting to disprove the resurrection would only have to open the nearby tomb to display the corpse or skeleton.
3. No one on either side of the issue denied that Jesus’ tomb was empty; as stated previously, the Jews claimed that the disciples stole the body.

[Jenny A]

Pick a single "proof" Randy, preferably the best one.

Negative, Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

(I already have a lot on my plate.)

That would be the point.  You've emptied out all the dressers, drawers, and closets onto the floor and are now flailing around in the laundry.

[Cato]

That would be the point.  You've emptied out all the dressers, drawers, and closets onto the floor and are now flailing around in the laundry.

Knowing there was nothing in the attic to begin with.

[Crossless2.0]

Gee, it's almost as if the NT authors had read the OT.......

Copy/paste of the 100 alleged prophecies the NT writers claim Jesus fulfilled in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

Randy's a hopeless case, and I am just bored with him at this point.

[Metis]

Randy...All of those philosophical arguments have been argued against and proven fallacious long ago. A simple google search will unearth plenty of evidence from sources such as ratonal wiki or Dawkins home page revealling several hundred thousands arguments from athiests and non-Christian thiests for as to why those arguments are rubbish. Literally the first thing I pulled up on google http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_first_cause, there's others for each subject you posted.

I was actually going to sit down and answer each one individually as I did in previous threads but it's pretty clear by now you're not really here to debate but just to yell/preach at us and evacuate thread when it becomes apparent you've been proven mistaken.

Also, horribly cliche mantra but since you've used it again. The bible is a claim Randy, it is not evidence. The fact I can claim to be the Pope of Rome is not evidence backing it up. Miracles are another bad one to reference, because for every Catholic miracle you can pull out I can pull out an Orthodox or Islamic one condemning Catholics as infidels.

As for incorrubptibles...Well



Say hello to Zita, a saint who was made a saint using her incorruptibility as evidence. Sadly she hasn't aged so well, and neither have Padre Pio or Bernadette Souborius, two other saints proclaimed saints on the back of their incorruptibility and are now displayed with wax hands and masks to hide the decaying flesh.

Don't belive me, have some others...


St. Catherine



St. Claudine



Wow yeah...Real well preserved ¬_¬ Totally a sign of holiness. I seem to recall the Incas actually being executed by Catholics for putting their dead on display .