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A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
#11
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
If he bothered to show himself, the first question would be, "I assume these stupid books bear no relation to you, right?"

And he would say "Buhi".

That is god speak for yes. God agrees with me. Atheists are always right.
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#12
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
(July 21, 2015 at 1:18 am)Jenny A Wrote: I only just heard the new one.  But it works for the BeeGees and they deserve it:
We're talking of our good friend Vorlon. I think Fanny (Be Tender With My Love) is more apropos. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO68M4AtMHg
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#13
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
What confuses me about this is that god is apparently claiming that we were created with the free will to believe in him or not, but then he turns around and decides to severely punish non-believers for executing the free will he gave them. Um... what?
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#14
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
Yeah, there is no free will from God's viewpoint.

Theists simply love to make up bullshit and call it an apologetic argument.

If god was real to begin with, we would not need brain-dead followers to make ignorant arguments in favor of stated god.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#15
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
(July 20, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Jenny A Wrote: J Warner Wallace, William Lane Craig  http://www.bethinking.org/is-christianit...ristianity, Michael Murray and others. http://winteryknight.com/2009/02/16/why-...he-exists/ contend that there isn't enough evidence to prove god, only enough to make belief in god rational because if god were to provide proof, that would be coercive and god wants to be loved freely and without coercion.

This is a fair representation of the Christian position. I'm happy that we will be discussing what Christians ACTUALLY believe and not a strawman.

Quote:I think any discussion of this little gem of an excuse ought to start with the definition of coercion:

Quote:1
:  to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>
2
:  to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3
:  to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>
merriam-webster.com

Quote:the use of force to persuade someone to do something that they are unwilling to do:
British English Dictionary

Quote:The intimidation of a victim to compel the individual to do some act against his or her will by the use of psychological pressure, physical force, or threats. The crime of intentionally and unlawfully restraining another's freedom by threatening to commit a crime, accusing the victim of a crime, disclosing any secret that would seriously impair the victim's reputation in the community, or by performing or refusing to perform an official action lawfully requested by the victim, or by causing an official to do so.
The Free Legal Dictionary

Good definitions. Thank you for providing them as a starting point.

Quote:Now, I can think of a whole number of cases where the actions of the Christian god, would be considered coercive by any and all of the above definitions: the story of Johna who was hounded first into running for the nearest ship and then forced off the ship by the storm (the would be both force and intimidation); the command that Lot and his family leave Sodom and Gomorrah (force and intimidation); the persuasion of the Pharaoh to let the Israelites go (threats, force and intimidation); the endless punishment of the Isrealites for worshiping Baal (domination by force) and so on.  Nothing much has changed.  The trinity god of the New Testament is if anything worse.  He/they threaten an eternal hell for those who do not accept Jesus and savior (threats).  That's coercion as I understand the definition.  Even withholding eternal life would qualify as a type of coercion.

I, too, thought of Jonah's situation with regard to coercion. I think if you read the story carefully, Jonah chose (freely) at least two if not three times to disobey God before he finally chose (freely again) to accept God's will. He COULD have kept on fighting, you know. But that's not very satisfying, is it? However, there's more to the story.

According to the Jews (and Wikipedia!), "The book of Jonah (Yonah יונה) is one of the twelve minor prophets included in the Tanakh. According to tradition, Jonah was the boy brought back to life by Elijah the prophet, and hence shares many of his characteristics (particularly his desire for "strict judgment"). The book of Jonah is read every year, in its original Hebrew and in its entirety, on Yom Kippur – the Day of Atonement, as the Haftarah at the afternoon mincha prayer."

If this is true, Jenny, then Jonah already knew that God existed. Jonah had prior experience of God's intervention in his life. So, God wasn't coercing Jonah into BELIEVING that He existed...God was simply having trouble getting Jonah to obey Him! I could probably make a similar case for a number of the examples you cite above.

Quote:And like the god it proclaims, the church doesn't have much problem with coercion either.  In it's mildest form it's teaching children that god exists as if it were fact.  In it's most heinous form it the burning of heretics.

Teaching children that God exists (as a fact) is no more coercive than teaching them that democracy is superior to dictatorship. Or that capitalism is better than communism. If you aren't happy with these analogies, spend some time thinking up some of your own. It shouldn't be difficult.

The burning of heretics was intended to prevent the spread of a spiritual disease - heresy. Was the threat intended to coerce the heretic into recanting? Absolutely. But this was the action of MAN - not God.

Quote:So I think it's pretty clear that the god claimed by the Christians doesn't mind a little coercion here and there.  So I have a hard time imagining how anyone can claim with a straight face that god doesn't want to coerce belief.

Well, I just explained the errors in your reasoning, so yeah, I can say with a straight face that God does not want to coerce you into believing in Him. The fact that you don't believe provides evidence to that effect. If God WERE about coercion, you would know it, wouldn't you?

Quote:But says Craig and company, god wants you to love him freely.  It sounds nice doesn't it?

Of course. Because it IS nice.

Quote:God wants you to love him freely (shhh don't mention hell).  

You don't have to love God. You are free to choose. If you choose to maintain your current trajectory of unbelief, you may find yourself granted what you have always wanted (separation from God) for all eternity. You should be thrilled with that possibility...

Unless, of course, you may have regrets about your decision after having seen that yes, God does exist. In which case, choosing to be separated from him for all eternity might be unpleasant. But some here in this forum claim that this will be their choice no matter what. Hopefully, you will not be among that crew.

Quote:But it's a bate and switch game based on the two meanings of "to believe in."   One meaning is to believe in the existence of, as in I believe in ghosts, or gravity, or the big bang.  The other means to trust or love, as in I believe in my husband, or my senator (do you think anyone really does), or my friend. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/believe  Craig has suddenly moved from belief in existence to belief of the loving trust type.  But we aren't demanding evidence that god is worthy of love.  The demand is for evidence of his existence.

How is this "bate [sic] and switch"?

Clearly, you "believed" in the existence of your husband before you fell in love with him. Similarly, we can believe that God exists without really knowing Him more personally or intimately. For example, do you believe that Barack Obama is the President of the United States? Of course. Do you know much about him (his childhood, his education, his views on various political and social issues)? Probably. Do you know him personally as you would a know a neighbor or a co-worker or a friend? Probably not - unless you happen to be in his circle of friends and acquaintances (are you?).

Similarly, it is possible to know about God without knowing God, and there are believers and unbelievers in this group, btw. But just as hearing about some guy (Stage 1) that you would eventually meet, love and marry (Stage 2), so you can hear about God and accept that information BEFORE falling more deeply in love with Him.

This is not "bait and switch", Jenny. This is the normal process that we humans go through as we learn to love another being.

Quote:Is there a real world situation in which providing evidence of a proposition would be considered coercive?  I can only think of two which might possibly be shoe horned into the definition of coercion, neither of which applies to providing real proof.  Fraud is would be a better word.  The first would be providing false evidence to influence someone's decision; the second would be withholding evidence to force a wrong decision.  Providing evidence of the truth is not coercion.

So what's really going on here?  Christians?

I'm not providing false information about God nor am I withholding evidence (even about hell, for example). I am providing the best information and arguments that I can so that you can make an intelligent, informed decision.

That's what's going on here. [Image: thumbsup.gif]
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#16
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
Randy Carson Wrote:If this is true, Jenny, then Jaonah already knew that God existed. Jonah had prior experience of God's intervention in his life. So, God wasn't coercing Jonah into BELIEVING that He existed...God was simply having trouble getting Jonah to obey Him! I could probably make a similar case for a number of the examples you cite above.

This is the sort of mental backflip I've come to expect from someone trying to fit all these contradictions together. I feel bad for you in your impossible task.

You've already agreed that God revealing himself with more proof would be coercion, and that this is NOT a straw man of your beliefs. But when refuting Jenny's point on the coercion in Jonah's story you say
Quote:Jonah had prior experience of God's intervention in his life.
Here, God is doing something that WLC et al say "He" doesn't do, because it would be coercion. Something you agreed with.

When you say God wasn't forcing Jonah into believing him, he was trying to get Jonah to obey him, your reasoning was that God had already forced him into believing him prior to the story Jenny brought up.
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:

"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."

For context, this is the previous verse:

"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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#17
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
(July 26, 2015 at 11:40 am)Exian Wrote:
Randy Carson Wrote:If this is true, Jenny, then Jaonah already knew that God existed. Jonah had prior experience of God's intervention in his life. So, God wasn't coercing Jonah into BELIEVING that He existed...God was simply having trouble getting Jonah to obey Him! I could probably make a similar case for a number of the examples you cite above.

This is the sort of mental backflip I've come to expect from someone trying to fit all these contradictions together. I feel bad for you in your impossible task.

Ahhh....poor thing...I feel so bad for you you...it's sad really...you poor dear.

Spare me the sarcasm, okay, pal. You can stick it in your ear.

Quote:You've already agreed that God revealing himself with more proof would be coercion, and that this is NOT a straw man of your beliefs. But when refuting Jenny's point on the coercion in Jonah's story you say
Quote:Jonah had prior experience of God's intervention in his life.
Here, God is doing something that WLC et al say "He" doesn't do, because it would be coercion. Something you agreed with.

When you say God wasn't forcing Jonah into believing him, he was trying to get Jonah to obey him, your reasoning was that God had already forced him into believing him prior to the story Jenny brought up.


Let me clarify, and I should have spoken to this previously.

It is correct to say that God is VERY gentle with regard to His revealing of Himself normatively. But it is not absolutely the case that He does not intervene more overtly when His plan necessitates doing so. Obvious examples include Abraham, Moses, a whole bunch of prophets, David, Mary, Peter, Paul...right on through history when we might say that God intervened more dramatically in the lives of the children at Fatima, Billy Graham and many, many others.

However, when you consider that Adam and Eve "walked with God" in the Garden of Eden (and this is metaphorical), we learn that God originally intended a much closer relationship with man than we currently experience.

As for the specifics of Jonah, you can argue that God FORCED Jonah to believe in him (if this helps you to continue denying God's goodness), but I read it as God doing a GOOD thing by saving Jonah's life.
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#18
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
[Image: backflip.gif]


[Image: 120430-ent-dwts-hmed.380;380;7;70;0.jpg]
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:

"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."

For context, this is the previous verse:

"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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#19
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
(July 26, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: As for the specifics of Jonah, you can argue that God FORCED Jonah to believe in him (if this helps you to continue denying God's goodness), but I read it as God doing a GOOD thing by saving Jonah's life.

And here lies the greatest problem with discussing anything about gawd with a christer. There is nothing their gawd can do that they can't construe as good, because they get to make up his motives for him. Coercing Jonah into obeying is ok because gawd was "doing a GOOD thing by saving Jonah's life." Ordering the slaughter of the Canaanites was ok because they were evil and gawd had promised that land to the Israelites. Firebombing an entire population is ok, "cuz they was wicked!!!" Destroying the entire fucking world is just fucking dandy because of the "wickedness" of every extant human being (including newborn infants) except, of course, for Noah and his family. Hell, even generations of incest, not once, but twice, seems to be perfectly acceptable despite the majority of christers abhorring the practice as immoral.
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
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#20
RE: A Contradiction of Coercions Can We Have a Christian Explaination?
(July 26, 2015 at 2:16 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote:
(July 26, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: As for the specifics of Jonah, you can argue that God FORCED Jonah to believe in him (if this helps you to continue denying God's goodness), but I read it as God doing a GOOD thing by saving Jonah's life.

And here lies the greatest problem with discussing anything about gawd with a christer. There is nothing their gawd can do that they can't construe as good, because they get to make up his motives for him. Coercing Jonah into obeying is ok because gawd was "doing a GOOD thing by saving Jonah's life." Ordering the slaughter of the Canaanites was ok because they were evil and gawd had promised that land to the Israelites. Firebombing an entire population is ok, "cuz they was wicked!!!" Destroying the entire fucking world is just fucking dandy because of the "wickedness" of every extant human being (including newborn infants) except, of course, for Noah and his family. Hell, even generations of incest, not once, but twice, seems to be perfectly acceptable despite the majority of christers abhorring the practice as immoral.

The fact that Christians have reasonable explanations for all your silly objections really sticks in your craw, doesn't it?

Get over it.
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