Theists i want a quick forum chat with you

[dyresand]

Soo.. All that Satan did to Job, was what 'good' in your world?

Remember All God did was lift the protection Job had under him. [...]

Uhm... While we're at it? Why does omnipotent God have to prove anything to Satan - his creation, again? Looks like a bitch move to me. Basically - it looks like God and Satan are equal. Except Satan never seems to have the need to explain himself to God. Is God the bottom in that relationship?

I think he is...

This is why i say satan isn't bad.

If you go by the idea that the Bible is a single, unified work, then he does bad things.  He deceives, he seeks opportunities to hurt people and then takes full advantage, he tries to derail god's plan to redeem mankind and drag as many people to damnation with him as he can.

He is equal parts Pandora and Loki.  He unlocks the gateway to hell and then tries to usher people in, realizing from the start that his own fate has been sealed.  In that sense he's kind of like a Bond villain.  You know, the quirky billionaire who hatches the brilliant idea of causing the world to blow up in the hopes of earning a few million dollars.  Not the best thought out plans, all in all.  But he's a flawed character in a book that is all about flawed characters.  Few of the characters in the Bible come away unscathed.

It'd be a very fun landscape to develop further, if people weren't so touchy about it.

Eitherway you have villian number 1. Kim Jon Il of spiritual north korea 
then you have bond villian number 2. 
Either or its a loose loose situation except one of them gave you a present saying
you should be ashamed of your nekkid body and free will.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I'll start it off 

Satan isn't evil nor bad. In the bible he has done nothing really to show he is bad he showed
some what of a good side considering he didn't want jesus to die on a roman crucifixion. To start it off
with genesis god actually lied to adam and eve the serpent told the truth and god cursed humanity.
Note why would god curse humanity? if god told the truth they would have died were they stood but
the serpent told the truth while god simply lied.

Soo.. All that Satan did to Job, was what 'good' in your world?

Remember All God did was lift the protection Job had under him. It was Satan who decided to kill Job's family and take everything he had and strike him down with sores... Satan did not have to go that way. In the beginning of the story Satan points out that Job only followed God because God gave Him so much.. If Satan believed that Job could be bought why did he take everything away?

Looks like you are guilty of not thinking things through dry sand.. again.

The stories about Job, Abraham, and Jesus are similar.  Job held fast to his faith in spite of his troubles.  Abraham got faith because he was bribed with promises of wealth and personal fame.  Jesus refused to be bribed and he suffered troubles as a result.  All of the stories involving the major biblical characters follow one of these three themes.

[Cephus]

I'll start it off 

Satan isn't evil nor bad. In the bible he has done nothing really to show he is bad he showed
some what of a good side considering he didn't want jesus to die on a roman crucifixion. To start it off
with genesis god actually lied to adam and eve the serpent told the truth and god cursed humanity.
Note why would god curse humanity? if god told the truth they would have died were they stood but
the serpent told the truth while god simply lied.

Huh?

I like how you guys try to discuss the bile with out having actually having read the bible.

God said the day they eat thereof THAT DAY they will die.

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. - Psalm 90:4

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8

Adam lived to be 930 just short of what God counts as a day.

The serpent however stated that they wouldn't die period... so now who's the liar?

Both of them?

[AtheistAspie]

I'll start it off 

Satan isn't evil nor bad. In the bible he has done nothing really to show he is bad he showed
some what of a good side considering he didn't want jesus to die on a roman crucifixion. To start it off
with genesis god actually lied to adam and eve the serpent told the truth and god cursed humanity.
Note why would god curse humanity? if god told the truth they would have died were they stood but
the serpent told the truth while god simply lied.

If you view the Bible as a whole, then Satan is identified as a liar and murderer by Jesus in John 8:44.  In Revelation 12:9 he is said to "lead the whole world astray."  The NT links Satan to the serpent and specifically blames him for leading people away from god and towards their doom, which he will eventually share.  He is the main bad guy in the Bible, since much of the wickedness in the OT can be laid at his feet in some manner or other.

If you view the Bible as a lot of different stories that were eventually mashed together to form an imperfect whole, then it is more ambiguous because the serpent may simply be a serpent and the Satan from the book of Job does not act without god's consent, and could be considered an agent of god or a counselor of sorts.  When he urges god to stop protecting Job, god does so instead of telling Satan to shove off.  At the end there is no indication that anything at all happens to Satan; his part in the whole drama is done and he goes his merry way.  The NT authors sought to provide a more substantial villain for their narrative, and I guess the best they could come up with was a fallen angel who would get a shot at god after he almost completely "de-powered" himself but who was otherwise no longer a threat.

And yet the bible never identifies god as a liar and a murderer, despite the fact that he's wiped out thousands of people, including all the first born children of Egypt, and 185,000 sleeping Assyrian soldiers (2 Kings 19:35).  He claimed to be merciful, but I cannot see this as anything more than a lie.  Instead of freeing the Hebrews from the Egyptians himself (or preventing them from becoming enslaved in the first place), he makes a man do his work for him, knowing the whole time that Moses will fail to convince the Pharaoh of god's existence, and then, upon Ramses doing exactly what god knew he would do, god decides to wipe Egypt out.  That's no definition of mercy that I'm familiar with.  How is that better than the lying and murdering that Satan committed?  Why did god even create Satan in the first place, given that he knew exactly how things would turn out?  If he really hates evil, why not just eliminate the devil?  Or does he like having someone else run hell for him while he's out killing people in their sleep and watching children suffer?

[dyresand]

If you view the Bible as a whole, then Satan is identified as a liar and murderer by Jesus in John 8:44.  In Revelation 12:9 he is said to "lead the whole world astray."  The NT links Satan to the serpent and specifically blames him for leading people away from god and towards their doom, which he will eventually share.  He is the main bad guy in the Bible, since much of the wickedness in the OT can be laid at his feet in some manner or other.

If you view the Bible as a lot of different stories that were eventually mashed together to form an imperfect whole, then it is more ambiguous because the serpent may simply be a serpent and the Satan from the book of Job does not act without god's consent, and could be considered an agent of god or a counselor of sorts.  When he urges god to stop protecting Job, god does so instead of telling Satan to shove off.  At the end there is no indication that anything at all happens to Satan; his part in the whole drama is done and he goes his merry way.  The NT authors sought to provide a more substantial villain for their narrative, and I guess the best they could come up with was a fallen angel who would get a shot at god after he almost completely "de-powered" himself but who was otherwise no longer a threat.

And yet the bible never identifies god as a liar and a murderer, despite the fact that he's wiped out thousands of people, including all the first born children of Egypt, and 185,000 sleeping Assyrian soldiers (2 Kings 19:35).  He claimed to be merciful, but I cannot see this as anything more than a lie.  Instead of freeing the Hebrews from the Egyptians himself (or preventing them from becoming enslaved in the first place), he makes a man do his work for him, knowing the whole time that Moses will fail to convince the Pharaoh of god's existence, and then, upon Ramses doing exactly what god knew he would do, god decides to wipe Egypt out.  That's no definition of mercy that I'm familiar with.  How is that better than the lying and murdering that Satan committed?  Why did god even create Satan in the first place, given that he knew exactly how things would turn out?  If he really hates evil, why not just eliminate the devil?  Or does he like having someone else run hell for him while he's out killing people in their sleep and watching children suffer?

If god eliminated evil he would eliminate himself. Satan isn't evil he may lie or deceive but all in all again never does anything bad.

[Tonus]

And yet the bible never identifies god as a liar and a murderer, despite the fact that he's wiped out thousands of people, including all the first born children of Egypt, and 185,000 sleeping Assyrian soldiers (2 Kings 19:35).

Of course not, he's the (ostensible) hero of the book. In the OT he is a reflection of certain human impulses, hence the patriarchal, wish-fulfillment nature of many of his actions and decisions and the reliance on such emotions as jealousy and anger. Why such a flawed "hero"? They had to work with what was available, and what was available was a god of war. Note that in the OT he refers to himself as Jehovah, God of Armies. In the NT he is re-shaped as a much more subtle and sophisticated character. No longer reflecting only one facet of human behavior, he needs to express himself as a wise and caring persona who is here to help. He humbles himself by taking human form, then allows his enemies to torture and kill him to further show that this is a kinder, gentler god. There is a bit of a reversal due to putting Revelation at the end; god is once more a powerful and vengeful and angry person who came down here to kick ass and take names... so he'll know the names of the asses he is kicking (or something like that).

Taken as a whole, god is the hero who wins the long struggle and Satan is the bad guy who loses big in the end. Taken as stories written over time to stand on their own, we see a bunch of moral fables that don't require an ultimate evil or even an ultimate good (the OT). It is the new testament that tries to create a binding narrative with good guys versus bad guys, and requires the creative interpretations of scripture that we see so often on these forums.

[Huggy Bear]

And yet the bible never identifies god as a liar and a murderer, despite the fact that he's wiped out thousands of people, including all the first born children of Egypt, and 185,000 sleeping Assyrian soldiers (2 Kings 19:35). 

I guess you forgot that it was the Egyptians who slaughtered the children of the Hebrews first, not to mention the angel of death was to kill the firstborn of anyone, be it Hebrew or Egyptian if they failed to apply the token of blood to their door, This is an obvious foreshadowing, of the fate of those who fail to accept the blood of Christ as an atonement.

As for the assyrians.

http://www.bible-history.com/old-testame...rians.html

It was the Assyrians that destroyed the northern kingdom Israel under Shalmaneser IV who besieged Samaria and then died during the siege leaving Sargon II to finish the task and drag Israel into captivity. After defeating the northern kingdom of Israel in 722 B. C., the Assyrians carried away thousands of Israelites and resettled them in other parts of the Assyrian Empire. This was a blow from which the nation of Israel never recovered. The ten tribes that were taken to Assyria became the ten lost tribes, for they have never again emerged in world history.

Assyrians were great warriors. Most nations at that time period were looters, building their state by robbing other nations. Assyria was the most ferocious of them all. Their very name became a byword for cruelty and atrocity. They skinned their prisoners alive, and cut off various body parts to inspire terror in their enemies. There is records of Assyrian officials pulling out tongues and displaying mounds of human skulls all to bring about stark horror and wealthy tribute from surrounding nations. Nowhere are the pages of history more bloody than in the records of their wars.

Yeah, poor assyrians...

The fact that you guys make these kind of arguments proves what spirit you're of.

[Drich]

Soo.. All that Satan did to Job, was what 'good' in your world?

i just answered that. Also it was a petty bet

Keep reading Sandy

My point was God DID NOT Make Satan kill anyone or steal everything Job had.

My point was Satan claimed that Job only loved God because God 'bought' his love through his protection and the stuff he gave him.

My Question was, if Satan really thought Job was bought/bribed then why didn't he offer Job more/why didn't he bribe job? Why was his first attempt to change job's mind to take everything from him? To murder his children?

All God did was take the protection He had over Job away and told satan don't hurt him. This does not mean Satan Had to Kill His family and steal all of Job's stuff. Satan could have done what God did, but he did not.

Someone else pointed out or asked why would an all knowing God need to test Job or Satan.. The bottom line for you and your short sighted friends, is the book of Job was not for the edification of God. It is to give the reads of this book insight to the nature of God and the nature of satan. It allows us to see the unrestricted nature of their character.

So I ask you again Sandy.. Is Satan Murdering Job's family and stealing all of his stuff, make him a good person?

[TubbyTubby]

i just answered that. Also it was a petty bet

Keep reading Sandy

My point was God DID NOT Make Satan kill anyone or steal everything Job had.

My point was Satan claimed that Job only loved God because God 'bought' his love through his protection and the stuff he gave him.

My Question was, if Satan really thought Job was bought/bribed then why didn't he offer Job more/why didn't he bribe job? Why was his first attempt to change job's mind to take everything from him? To murder his children?

All God did was take the protection He had over Job away and told satan don't hurt him. This does not mean Satan Had to Kill His family and steal all of Job's stuff. Satan could have done what God did, but he did not.

Someone else pointed out or asked why would an all knowing God need to test Job or Satan.. The bottom line for you and your short sighted friends, is the book of Job was not for the edification of God. It is to give the reads of this book insight to the nature of God and the nature of satan. It allows us to see the unrestricted nature of their character.

So I ask you again Sandy.. Is Satan Murdering Job's family and stealing all of his stuff, make him a good person?

Conjecture. Nothing more, nothing less Drich.

[Drich]

Soo.. All that Satan did to Job, was what 'good' in your world?

Remember All God did was lift the protection Job had under him. It was Satan who decided to kill Job's family and take everything he had and strike him down with sores... Satan did not have to go that way. In the beginning of the story Satan points out that Job only followed God because God gave Him so much.. If Satan believed that Job could be bought why did he take everything away?

Looks like you are guilty of not thinking things through dry sand.. again.

The stories about Job, Abraham, and Jesus are similar.  Job held fast to his faith in spite of his troubles.  Abraham got faith because he was bribed with promises of wealth and personal fame.  Jesus refused to be bribed and he suffered troubles as a result.  All of the stories involving the major biblical characters follow one of these three themes.

Uh, no. You need to read the bit as to why Abram found favor with God in the first place. If Job was bribed then why did he remain faithful after his bribes were taken away?

The only theme here is an obvious failing at Sunday school theology.