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Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
#21
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
(July 25, 2015 at 10:53 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: The VAST majority (91.4%) of abortions are performed before 13 weeks. (link to CDC data) So yes, most are a group of cells. 98.7% of all abortions are performed before a fetus is viable (<21 weeks). So yes, until the point where the fetus could survive outside of the mother, the overwhelming majority of abortions are non viable tissue.

If that is the point when the fetus is a human being, then you might have a point.  The problem is we have no scientific proof of when a fetus is a human being.  When it comes to human life I prefer to go with the option that takes away any chance of error.

Quote:You seem to think it's easy to gestate and birth a baby. That it's a non life-threatening, non-serious thing to undergo. And forcing a woman who doesn't want to (for WHATEVER reason) is taking control of her reproductive rights. Don't like abortions? Don't have one. It's easy to say, just have the baby and put it up for adoption! This completely discounts the earthquake that happens to your life because of an unwanted pregnancy. Unpaid maternal leave, postpartum, pregnancy complications, emotional distress in giving up a child, Obstetrical costs, etc.

If a person doesn't wish to go through that, what is it your business to force them to?

Are we not supposed to do the right thing because it causes problems in our lives? The right thing is the right thing. I could make my life a lot better by choosing the immoral path, but I don't because I want to do what is right. I do sympathize with the women involved, but I think it's right to go with human life over inconvenience or financial reasons.

Quote:Are you not embarrassed when you just spout whatever you feel without any sort of evidence to back it up? You don't like the idea of abortion, therefore most women who choose that route are using abortion as birth control?

How about this, then: most people who say that sort of thing just hate women and want to control their reproductive rights. Does that contain any sort of truth just because I said it?

I tried to find an unbiased source for the link below as to the reasons women get abortions.

http://www.webmd.com/women/tc/abortion-r...e-abortion
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#22
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
(July 24, 2015 at 11:13 pm)Lek Wrote: Most abortions are not because the mother can't afford the child anyway, but rather just for convenience - just a form of birth control.

[Image: 1417403615215.png]

(July 25, 2015 at 1:47 pm)Lek Wrote:
Quote:Are you not embarrassed when you just spout whatever you feel without any sort of evidence to back it up? You don't like the idea of abortion, therefore most women who choose that route are using abortion as birth control?

How about this, then: most people who say that sort of thing just hate women and want to control their reproductive rights. Does that contain any sort of truth just because I said it?

I tried to find an unbiased source for the link below as to the reasons women get abortions.

http://www.webmd.com/women/tc/abortion-r...e-abortion

*sigh* re-read what you posted above, and then re-read your citation. I understand and appreciate the attempt to find an unbiased source, but the source cited gives zero credibility your still unevidenced claim.

So, again, citation for your claim please.
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#23
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
(July 25, 2015 at 1:47 pm)Lek Wrote:
(July 25, 2015 at 10:53 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: The VAST majority (91.4%) of abortions are performed before 13 weeks. (link to CDC data) So yes, most are a group of cells. 98.7% of all abortions are performed before a fetus is viable (<21 weeks). So yes, until the point where the fetus could survive outside of the mother, the overwhelming majority of abortions are non viable tissue.

If that is the point when the fetus is a human being, then you might have a point.  The problem is we have no scientific proof of when a fetus is a human being.  When it comes to human life I prefer to go with the option that takes away any chance of error.

That's because it is not a scientifically verifiable terminus. It is a red herring. There is no "human test." As such it is only an attempt to shift the goalposts. We can only say that 'x weeks' is the point where it is extremely unlikely that a fetus will survive outside of the womb. And even then that number is moved back because of scientific intervention, a la NICUs.

(July 25, 2015 at 1:47 pm)Lek Wrote:
(July 25, 2015 at 10:53 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: You seem to think it's easy to gestate and birth a baby. That it's a non life-threatening, non-serious thing to undergo. And forcing a woman who doesn't want to (for WHATEVER reason) is taking control of her reproductive rights. Don't like abortions? Don't have one. It's easy to say, just have the baby and put it up for adoption! This completely discounts the earthquake that happens to your life because of an unwanted pregnancy. Unpaid maternal leave, postpartum, pregnancy complications, emotional distress in giving up a child, Obstetrical costs, etc.

If a person doesn't wish to go through that, what is it your business to force them to?

Are we not supposed to do the right thing because it causes problems in our lives? The right thing is the right thing. I could make my life a lot better by choosing the immoral path, but I don't because I want to do what is right. I do sympathize with the women involved, but I think it's right to go with human life over inconvenience or financial reasons.
So you choose an non-viable fetus' life over the life of the mother. And don't say you sympathize for someone and then attempt to take their lives away. That is some dishonest rug pulling, no less. You clearly do not sympathize with the women. You are merely acknowledging that it sucks, but you know what's best for them.

(July 25, 2015 at 1:47 pm)Lek Wrote:
(July 25, 2015 at 10:53 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: Are you not embarrassed when you just spout whatever you feel without any sort of evidence to back it up? You don't like the idea of abortion, therefore most women who choose that route are using abortion as birth control?

How about this, then: most people who say that sort of thing just hate women and want to control their reproductive rights. Does that contain any sort of truth just because I said it?

I tried to find an unbiased source for the link below as to the reasons women get abortions.

http://www.webmd.com/women/tc/abortion-r...e-abortion

Did you even read your link? No where in that link does it say that women use abortion as a method of birth control. It does say (if you had read past the first line) that women use abortion when their birth control fails. Let's keep in mind your original quote. (I would like to limit the inevitable goalpost moving.)

(July 24, 2015 at 11:13 pm)Lek Wrote: Most abortions are not because the mother can't afford the child anyway, but rather just for convenience - just a form of birth control.

You were talking about primary birth control here---abortion as convenience. Let's make that clear.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great

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#24
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
(July 25, 2015 at 1:56 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote:
(July 25, 2015 at 1:47 pm)Lek Wrote: I tried to find an unbiased source for the link below as to the reasons women get abortions.

http://www.webmd.com/women/tc/abortion-r...e-abortion

*sigh* re-read what you posted above, and then re-read your citation. I understand and appreciate the attempt to find an unbiased source, but the source cited gives zero credibility your still unevidenced claim.

So, again, citation for your claim please.

Women have various reasons for using birth control. If they are having an abortion for financial reasons, they are still using it as birth control. Like the link says, more than half of women who get abortions used birth control the month before. I'm not questioning the sincerity of their beliefs or calling them bad people. I just think they are wrong. Do you think that most women who have abortions do it more for themselves or for the good of the child?
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#25
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
(July 25, 2015 at 2:13 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: That's because it is not a scientifically verifiable terminus. It is a red herring. There is no "human test." As such it is only an attempt to shift the goalposts. We can only say that 'x weeks' is the point where it is extremely unlikely that a fetus will survive outside of the womb. And even then that number is moved back because of scientific intervention, a la NICUs.

I agree that it is not scientifically verifiable.  That's one reason I am against abortion.

Quote:So you choose an non-viable fetus' life over the life of the mother. And don't say you sympathize for someone and then attempt to take their lives away. That is some dishonest rug pulling, no less. You clearly do not sympathize with the women. You are merely acknowledging that it sucks, but you know what's best for them.

No, I don't choose the life of a fetus over the life of the mother.  If it's a "life for a life situation", I think the mother should make the decision.
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#26
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
(July 25, 2015 at 2:17 pm)Lek Wrote:
(July 25, 2015 at 1:56 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: *sigh* re-read what you posted above, and then re-read your citation. I understand and appreciate the attempt to find an unbiased source, but the source cited gives zero credibility your still unevidenced claim.

So, again, citation for your claim please.

Women have various reasons for using birth control. If they are having an abortion for financial reasons, they are still using it as birth control. Like the link says, more than half of women who get abortions used birth control the month before. I'm not questioning the sincerity of their beliefs or calling them bad people. I just think they are wrong. Do you think that most women who have abortions do it more for themselves or for the good of the child?

You are not providing a citation for your original claim in the above response.

I'm not responding to you on any other matter until you provide clear evidence of your claim, quoted below:
Quote:Most abortions are not because the mother can't afford the child anyway, but rather just for convenience - just a form of birth control.
[Image: 1417403615215.png]

This thread is at an impasse until you retract or evidence your claim, and I will continue asking until you do one or the other.
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#27
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
(July 25, 2015 at 2:40 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote:
(July 25, 2015 at 2:17 pm)Lek Wrote: Women have various reasons for using birth control.  If they are having an abortion for financial reasons, they are still using it as birth control.  Like the link says, more than half of women who get abortions used birth control the month before.  I'm not questioning the sincerity of their beliefs or calling them bad people.  I just think they are wrong.  Do you think that most women who have abortions do it more for themselves or for the good of the child?

You are not providing a citation for your original claim in the above response.

I'm not responding to you on any other matter until you provide clear evidence of your claim, quoted below:
Quote:Most abortions are not because the mother can't afford the child anyway, but rather just for convenience - just a form of birth control.
[Image: 1417403615215.png]

This thread is at an impasse until you retract or evidence your claim, and I will continue asking until you do one or the other.

"The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%);"

Is this an example of using abortion for birth control? I think it is. If we disagree then we are at an impasse. The link is shown below.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16150658
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#28
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
^^ no, it's nothing of the sort. The above implies only what is stated. It elucidates no further on personal circumstances, or on what other birth control methods were used and when, and how that relates to pregnancies. Maybe a % were relying purely on abortion for birth control, however I doubt that is the case for the majority (no evidence of that in your citation, either).

Whilet the study talks to several women, 1000+ is hardly a sample size which would lend any credibility to your claim in any case.

You are suffering from confirmation bias on your own pre-held beliefs. The above is not a citation of your claim. Sorry.
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#29
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
(July 25, 2015 at 12:25 am)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote:
(July 24, 2015 at 11:13 pm)Lek Wrote: just a form of birth control.

Do you really believe this Lek? In a world where a few bucks buys a variety of contraceptives, women are opting for an expensive medical treatment instead?!? Seriously?

Agreed.  An abortion is a very unpleasant process for a woman to endure...on multiple levels.

Far preferable are the traditional contraceptives.
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#30
RE: Do 'pro-life' Christians ever . . .
Quote:If someone is trying to preserve this living being, then they are pro-life in that regard.

What business is it of yours if some woman has or does not have a kid?  You should examine your motives.

I think you are a fucking busy body.


And before you start with the welfare horseshit try to remember that these fine xtian republicunt scumbags are forever trying to cut those benefits.
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