Theists, what does faith mean to you?

[Pyrrho]

[Whateverist]

I have had something supernatural happen to me. My mom was there and saw it too so I know it wasn't just me.

I'm very curious what it was and also how you ruled out natural causes.  But I'm happy to hear about it privately if you do not want to declare open season to the more rabid among us.

Of course.  Whatever it was is personal as well as sacred for you.  You shouldn't toss it around heedlessly.

[robvalue]

Of course I believe that people believe they have had supernatural experiences. I'd never accuse them of lying about it. But since it's not even been demonstrated that "the supernatural" actually exists at all (and people can't agree on the definition even) I'm not going to believe anything that doesn't have evidence we can examine.

No one asked your opinion Rob.

Whoops. Oh yeah

[Whateverist]

Meh, I think the category of the supernatural is an empty set. Those who don't agree seem to think that they can tell the difference between a phenomenon which we will never be able to explain and one which can't currently be explained. How else would they know what belongs in that category?

Nonetheless I have no problem giving meaning to "sacred" and contrasting it with "profane". That distinction doesn't depend on any category of supernatural things. For that matter, I don't think there is an objective fact of the matter regarding what is or can't be sacred. These things have to be vouched for by the gut, not the lobe.

[robvalue]

Yeah, that's why I prefer a definition of the supernatural which excludes anything we could ever test or interact with. Just saying we don't understand it and calling that supernatural is pretty pointless in my opinion. Why not just say unexplained? Like the word "God", it's an attempt to sneak in a load of extra qualities.

If I had to guess I'd say it is probably an empty set, yes. But by (my) definition I can't possibly know!

[Whateverist]

That's okay. I have faith that it is an empty set.

[Tartarus Sauce]

It's not about whether you personally can replicate it, you stated it was beyond the capacity of all mortals.

I don't see why it would not be possible to know it's beyond the capacity of all mortals if we can appreciate it's greatness, just like I can know a certain writing is beyond my capability.

Your argument it's because we can appreciate, it's within our capability. But with that our argument, I should be capable of replicating any writing that I can appreciate it's greatness.

No that was very much not my argument. I only brought in appreciation so I could mention the Voynich Manuscript as an example of just how broad the scope of human imagination is.

My argument was that since the Quran is understandable, interpretable, and translatable by humans, it is evident that the ideas contained within its pages are at least capable of having been generated within a human mind. This is to counter your claim that you find it impossible for its authorship to have originated from a mortal source.

In order for us to understand a message we must understand the underlying base concepts that the message or idea is composed of. This applies to even paradoxical concepts. For example, we cannot conceive of what a square-circle could look like since there would be no way for us to envision a shape independent from either a square or a circle by itself that manages to equally retain the properties of both simultaneously that makes any logical sense to us. But we understand the underlying concepts that compose this idea of a square-circle, and since we understand these underlying components, we therefore recognize it's an irrational idea.

Yet it's still an idea that we can communicate, and we can understand the idea of a square-circle even though we can't imagine it's design or mathematically describe its properties, but we can still have thoughts about it and communicate about it. It has only transcended our capacity to envision it, not our ability to conceive of it in the abstract or communicate about it.

If an idea is capable of being communicated and understood by others, it is capable of being thought about, which means it's possible for the idea to be generated from a human mind. In order for something to be literally beyond the scope of creation from any human mind, it must transcend the capacity for a human mind to think about it, and anything that can still be comprehensibly communicated to or understood by at least one human mind has not transcended our limit of thought. That is the crux of my argument.

I'm not saying for the sake of this argument that this is definitive proof that the Quran was authored solely by thoughts generated from a human mind, I very much do believe that was the case, but that is not the purpose of my counter argument. What I'm asserting is that since all the ideas within the Quran are communicated through a common medium and understandable to humans, it has not transcended our capacity of thought and therefore, in principle, could have been conceived from a human mind.

[Mystic]

I can know a writing is beyond my own capability, despite being able to appreciate it's greatness. If this is true, why can't I know a writing is beyond all human capability just because I can appreciate it (to a degree)?

One of the appreciative qualities of the Quran, the more you study it and more you think about it, the more majestic it get's and people don't get bored of reading it. Whole new images of a Surah take in the heart the more keys are unlocked with reflection with respect to other parts of the Quran. There is an image within a image, and interior to an interior.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm very curious what it was and also how you ruled out natural causes.  But I'm happy to hear about it privately if you do not want to declare open season to the more rabid among us.

Of course.  Whatever it was is personal as well as sacred for you.  You shouldn't toss it around heedlessly.

That is exactly right, my friend.

[TubbyTubby]

Why is it that myself and perhaps most atheists here and those I know personally don't have supernatural experiences?